Greener Pastures [UPDATE X2]

[Update] If you guys might rec this I might get my point across tomorrow. I dunno. Maybe this sparks meaningful discussion, maybe it doesn't. I wouldn't mind going out on a high note. Thanks to those who've said such kind things. Be well.

[Update2]Reaper9Bot9ATgmailDOTcom for those who want to contact me.

I ain't saying you'll never see me here again, but I am saying I'm pretty much done with this place.  The inmates are running the asylum and I'm afraid they're going to take the conch shell and Piggy's days are numbered.

I want to do my part, however small, to further the progressive agenda and get Democrats elected.  Altogether too many here don't want that, or are so incredibly blinded by their anger and disdain for Barack Obama to do anything constructive even downballot.  Even if they still consider themselves Democrats and even intend to vote for Democrats downballot, they've succeeded in one thing:

They've made this place unliveable.  It isn't about dissent and it never has been.  There's too much mayhem hereabouts.  I'd be far more tolerant of a screed on how much Barack Obama sucks if I could expect anything other than the same seven or so people coming in and saying the same things they always say.  DTaylor, BSavage, Catfish2, Rankles, Majoriest, Handsomegent, and the rest of the gang will pop up and just have fun at our expense.

Please show me the last constructive comment or diary any of these people wrote.  I define constructive as oriented towards getting Democrats elected or, at the least, issue advocacy.  They come in for probably different reasons but ultimately the same result.  We spend half of our energy dealing with those spoilers.  By reacting I empower them.  I have failed.

I am not without analytical or literary skills.  I am not done with the Netroots.  However I will not participate in a forum wherein those who actually want to do something constructive are shouted down by those who are either there under false pretenses or are so very bitter that they not only don't want to participate but they seek to obstruct.

How many diaries do we have on fundraising?  How many on getting out the vote?  How many on grassroots organizing?  It's mostly re-fighting the primary wars or meta crap in which we continue this sad and sorry soap opera we've created.  The real diaries get basically zero comments but the latest screed about how much the PUMAs suck will get 200.  At least at DailyKos I can be a part of a group that raises money for candidates and tries to drive the debate.

The drama has replaced the substance.  This place isn't working for me.  I find myself getting angry and accomplishing nothing.  There's too many good people here for it to be fair to let the bitter folks ruin it.  Bobswern, Spacemanspiff, Chrisblask, MS Indie01, Holledge, Warmwaterpenguin, upstate girl, ChrisBlask, ProfessorReo, venician, rfahey22, Koan, fladem, BishopRook and so many others like them are here trying to do the good work.  It is entirely possible that my very honest and justifiable anger at the morans who infest our belfry have prevented me from doing my own fair share here.

The Democratic Party isn't the story here anymore, we are.  That would be fine if it was constructive.  It isn't.  Perhaps this place will heal and become useful again.  There's a lot of talent here, but there isn't any moderation to speak of.  I've been active on the internets for years.  I'm used to seeing appropriate direction and care on the part of administrators.  Where it is lacking you wind up with something very much like this.

Certainly I will be accused of whining yet again.  I see the irony in decrying the meta crap hereabouts in a diary in which I do so, and wherein I make it about me me me.  The point is I'm done with that.  We're going to have a fantastic election this year and I'm going to leave my mark.  However small it's mine.  Getting on the Rec List here matters little.  It changes nothing.

Be well.  I will participate in this diary for as long as the moderators leave it up.  I'm sure it'll get tossed pretty quickly like the last such diary did.  See you over at the DailyKos and at Ars Technica.  Same handle, Reaper0Bot0.


Poll
Has the drama drowned the dream?
Yes
No

Votes: 35
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Tips? (2.00 / 22)

For the bartender before he closes down?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:47:46 PM EST

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 9)

Leaving now, especially after what you did last week on the Wailing Wall issue, would mean this site would decline even further. Please reconsider.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 06:23:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (1.00 / 1)

Duende, as you know I was the recipient of this diarist's ire on the wailing wall issue. He was I would say phenomenally successful in his efforts. he was backed to the max. Leaving after that just raises a huge question mark in my mind about his motives in the first place.


by linfar on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:08:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 4)

Linfar, I'm going to say this as politely as I possibly can:

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.  I am not leaving because of you.  I am not a troll.  You are behaving irrationally, as if somehow I was here under false pretenses.  You are absolutely wrong.  In EVERY regard.

Do you understand how hilarious it is to read posts like that?  You're suggesting, I think, that you're important enough for me to somehow have dedicated a decent chunk of my time refuting your "work."  Moreover, I've been active here for several months.  I'm on the Rec list often these days.

Did you only notice me when I dealt with your most recent "critiqute" of Barack Obama?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:22:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 7)

I think his motives were pretty transparent to most people here, Linfar. He wanted to clear up a false allegations about Obama and the wailing wall. His main target was actually a diarist, not you, demanding a retraction because the story had been 'confirmed'. It wasn't personal - it was political.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:34:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 5)

It wasn't personal - it was political.

Therein lies the confusion for many.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:10:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? (2.00 / 4)

One of the ways to enjoy this site more, and stay sane, is to realise that Obama supporters are actually the majority of this site.

Maybe we should follow ClintonistasforObama and come up with our own sub site: MYDDERs4OBAMA.

If in doubt, organise.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 06:45:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Interesting (2.00 / 4)

This diary was top of the rec list for hours, and suddenly disappeared from it completely in minutes.

I'm sure it's just a technical issue!


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:45:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reaper, you're taking things too seriously. (2.00 / 6)

Take a break, then come back.  That's what I do.

One other piece of advice:  Trolls are trolls.  We can argue about what to call them, but at some point, you have to realize that they aren't worth the effort.  They are here to drain you and entertain themselves in the process.  The best way to deal with them is not to educate them, not to try to change their minds, not to try to understand them, but just to ignore or mock them.


by Dumbo on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:38:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe you can share your favorite inhaler (2.00 / 2)

with him...time to chill out a bit Reaper..see below for more comments..


by louisprandtl on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:13:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW Dumbo, that was a reference to one of your (2.00 / 2)

posted images. Hope you don't take the little joke wrongly..


by louisprandtl on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great Tidings (2.00 / 5)

If I can find another blog that truly works for progressive ideals, where there is real discussion of issues and how to advance them and not fights over who is disrespecting whom and who isn't honoring whom, I'd be so out of here.

Kos is winning me back, but I'm still banned from that place, so I'm stuck here like an addict fighting with the trolls.

Perhaps if there was a way to just block this website...like advanced parental blocks or something, I can kick the habit.

MyDD has become such a piece of garbage in the last six months. there is little if anything of value here anymore.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:52:17 PM EST

Re: Great Tidings (2.00 / 3)

Get a new handle at Kos.  Get a new IP if need be.  It ain't sockpuppetry if you're civil and make no waves.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They banned (2.00 / 2)

my brother after he was there for three weeks because he wrote a diary saying that FISA wasn't worth self-destructing the party's chances at winning in November. He got up the next day, found he couldn't comment or anything.

I'm sorta scared of that place. The next comment could be the one that gets you banned.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They banned (none / 0)

I dunno.  I wrote kind things about Chuck Hagel today and didn't get tossed.  I cross-posted my "God, I think he HAS to screw us diary" over there and didn't get nailed for it.  That was the one wherein I said Obama might have to flip on FISA.  Not exactly a popular argument.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:00:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No I know (2.00 / 1)

many people don't get banned for saying worse things.

I dunno if you remember, but I was the guy who phonebanked for Obama in Indiana, got disgusting responses, wrote a diary about. That's the one that got me banned. I deleted it just to get my rights back, never did.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:09:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No I know (2.00 / 1)

Ack, that is unfortunate.

You know what's funny?  As much a bunch of bastards as they are, RedState really does keep an even keel.  They let me post openly as a liberal (dissent is allowed if its open and respectful) but they come down like the angry fist of justice on trolls.  They agitate for their issues and candidates very well.

Obviously I disagree with them on nearly every issue but there is a lot to respect about how that site is run.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As much as they suck (2.00 / 2)

I'm beginning to find Republicans in general slightly more tolerant than some liberals. My opinions of liberals, especially the blogsphere, has dropped substantially since the primaries began.

To me there's nothing more disgusting then Democrats working to defeat the nominee because their candidate lost the primaries, and I mean it sincerely when I say if kossacks had come out trying to defeat Hillary if she was the nominee, I'd come down hard on them. It's disgusting. If we want to convince America we should be governing them, we need to swallow our pride and make concessions for the greater good...you know, like the Republicans didn't.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:16:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: As much as they suck (2.00 / 1)

I'd love to hear about your experience getting banned at DKos. I'm writing a piece about all this. Check my diary from last week

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/29/1237 48/942

There's an email address there too.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 06:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OMG! (none / 0)

They allow dissent? You are full of...well, you know.
I don't know what redstate you went to...but then, this, kos and redstate are looking more and more alike all the time.

by SoCalVet on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG! (2.00 / 1)

I've been posting openly as a liberal for months now.  The thing that so many do wrong is that they go in there swinging.

Write a diary introducing yourself and avoid flamewars.  I'm not the first who's survived there, nor will I be the last.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OMG! (2.00 / 2)

Username Lori is pretty well liked around here, even though she doesn't know who she's voting for and is relatively conservative.  Why?  Because she's not trollish in the least.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They banned (2.00 / 3)

Reaper you are leaving just before it gets really fun. Once Obama announces his pick we will need you. You have defended our candidate countless times. If people follow your lead then it will be taken over. Take a break but join us once the VP is chosen. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Rec


by Politicalslave on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:23:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They banned (2.00 / 1)

Yes, I agree with this! Take your break and then saddle up when the VP is announced.


by wasder on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They banned (2.00 / 3)

It's been pointed out before, but comments like "Edwards, Obama, and Clinton are all scum" not to mention openly declaring one's self a "concern troll," getting under peoples' skin with apparent glee, and being repeatedly, unrepentantly obnoxious are exactly the sorts of things that'll get someone banned at Kos. That kind of stuff just isn't going to fly over there.

That said, an e-mail to an admin (and a second one, if necessary) will probably get you reinstated if you really were banned unfairly. I have no idea what your "brother" did, but writing one ill-received diary won't get you banned unless you litter the comment threads with inflammatory rebuttals and cross some pretty beyond-the-pale rhetorical lines (or you're discovered to be a sockpuppet or a previously banned user trying to return).

Sorry, but I have to defend the moderation at kos from this kind of mischaracterization. The idea that one innocuous comment can get you thrown off the site is simply untrue, and you keep trying to peddle this lie. If you or someone you know got banned there, the overwhelming odds are it was well deserved, not for the content of your speech but for behavior.

You're a reasonable commenter here; please be honest about what you did over there: given the number of comments you had hidden, you were hardly a model member and practically courted your own banning. If you want to go back, it's totally possible. Just ask.

The language gets pretty rough at Daily Kos, and the sheer numbers are forbidding sometimes. But the site generally doesn't suffer fools and trolls for very long, and despite being a major target, it manages to discourage those who would be there in bad faith or for disruptive purposes.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:56:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

all of my hidden comments (2.00 / 1)

were pretty me warning people that the attitude toward Hillary Clinton would lead to a party schism that would make it difficult for Obama to win as the nominee.

Or argue that Obama would become a pragmatic nominee and probably will revise his positions, so don't point fingers at Hillary because Obama will do the same thing (that was hidden too).

Maybe in kos-land that's bannable, but that site did help breed the very stupidity that is leading to Reaper leaving THIS site.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 01:52:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: all of my hidden comments (2.00 / 1)

I've seen your comments. Nice try.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They banned (2.00 / 1)

very considerate comment


by swissffun on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:06:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great Tidings (2.00 / 1)

sorry but the idea of sucking up to folks like you at the kos hate-site is as sickening as kissing ass to post at redstate of LGF.


by zerosumgame on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

nrafter... (2.00 / 1)

Send them a craven letter begging to be unbanned.  It will work.  tech@dailykos.com


by Dumbo on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

GBCW (1.93 / 15)

I hate to admit it, but I feel pretty much the same way. I'm going to hang in until the convention. I'm hoping that the convention will be a turning point for this site. If it doesn't change after that then I'll be joining you at dkos or finding somewhere else to participate. Maybe I'll start trolling repug sites to push Barr. That might be a more effective use of my time. Especially on sites dedicated to Georgia politics.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:56:08 PM EST

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 3)

If I see a reason to get involved hereabouts I will.  At present it seems silly to try.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 3)

MS01 I understand why people want to leave but just spend less time here but don't leave. The other sites can't be that different can they?


by Politicalslave on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 3)

Oh, but many other sites are different. The whole blogosphere isn't caught up in the trollery that this site endures. They also aren't filled with diaries about trolls. Some political sites actually deal with political issues.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 1)

Trolling, anywhere and for any reason, eats your soul. Do it sparingly.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (none / 0)

So I guess you are going to OpenLeft and Dkos? Have fun!


by bsavage on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 10:57:15 PM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 4)

Reaper--I made a diary very much like this during the primaries (not resigning, which I wish you wouldn't do, but begging for more hands on moderation). The amount of trash that was thrown at Barack during Feb and March here was incredible, very much like what was on right wing sites. I don't pretend that there wasn't stuff written about Hilary that was similarly hateful, but my diary was specifically about the anti-Obama stuff because at that time this site was so Hilary oriented. Anyway, I begged Jerome et al to take some control because it was really looking like Obama was going to win and did this site want to be on the outside looking in, having trashed the nominee so much.

However, I was fairly new to the community at that point, having only been posting for a month or two, and not as well versed in site moderation. I don't really know what the guys here can do to control some of the more vitriolic voices here--certainly we don't want an internet where you can't express your opinions freely, but I do wonder about the motivations of some of the dissenters.

I hope you stay. Take a few days off and get away from it all. The real deal isn't even going to start for another month so recharge yourself for the stretch run. Come back though, you have been doing some really strong work and have been a passionate blogger for the Democratic Nominee Barack Obama, so thank you.


by wasder on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:04:34 PM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 4)

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement.  I'm leaving the door open a tad.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 2)

If you are interested here is the diary I was referring to...

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/21/1248 41/762#commenttop

Unbelievable that I wrote that in February and we had to wait until June for the inevitable to be recognized.


by wasder on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 2)

I think the fact that most of those posters in your diary are gone is somehow scarier than some of the crap that they wrote.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (1.87 / 8)

Priceless diary if only for the comments. Did you see the crap that was being mojo'd? Hilarious. Check out this primary war flashback.

Re: MyDD must change its tone (none / 0)

You think you can tool us,  Obamanuts. Now you are talking about the Party and the importance of unity? (By the way, check out You Tube and what Larry Sinclair says about Obama. Turns out he is taking a Lie detector test and has a high priced lawyer. If he passes it; the sewerage is going to hit the fan and this time Axelrod doesn't have enough friends in the media to protect his candidate.)

by bJ Chicago on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:05:47 PM EST

It's par for the course on that diary.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:40:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (1.80 / 5)

Oh I read the whole thing.  Madness.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 3)

I was mystified both by the level of vitriol and by the fact that at that time the site did nothing, on its front page or otherwise, to try to tamp down that kind of posting about the person who was very likely to be the nominee.


by wasder on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (1.85 / 7)

Your diary is all too familiar. I posted a similiar comment about a month ago. You are not the first nor the last to feel frustrated. I've stuck around but have cut down on my posts. Don't waste my time fleshing out my arguments nor do I a really "engage" anymore.

You should stick around but don't exert so much energy trying to have an answer for every negative comment. I mostly stick around for the friendships I've made and the "promise" of a new ratings and rec system.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (1.80 / 5)

I'm stuck!


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 8)

While I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel here yet, I completely understand your frustration.  There seems to be little to no moderation on this site, while at the same time the tools for self-moderation are fairly worthless.

When I think of how wonky and policy-oriented this site was when I first started reading, it's actually pretty depressing to see where we are right now as a community.  Hopefully we'll be able to look back at these threads in 6 months and consider them a low point and not business as usual.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:05:14 PM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 4)

Been here for four years too, and the site feels it's at a tipping point. Apart from the obvious trolls like rankles - who BTW is just running riot on this thread with HRs - the rest of the energy of the site revolves around trying to unify, then pacify, and oftentimes appease, some former Hillary supports. C40 which I admire seems to be preoccupied in holding it's own house together. So the skew of the whole site becomes, to quote Jerome

"Obama is definitely the weakest nominee that Democrats have put up this decade."

To which, in the real world, the only reply is:

WTF?

Yeah, I remember the global excitement about Gore and Kerry, the intense voter registration, the amazing speeches, and rallies.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 06:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've been a big advocate... (2.00 / 5)

...for quite some time, about this community moving away from these gratuitous, self-indulgent screeds. It was quite pathetic around here, but I do see it getting better, except for a certain few--still more than plenty to ruin it for the rest of us.

I'm going to continue to fight the good fight here. And, I'm hoping you'll return more often than not to participate. This site is losing a valuable, regular contributor if you don't return often. But, I'll see you over on the Big Orange, like I did today, in any event!

Keep the faith Reap. It gets better...and this place is better than it's been, recently, as you already know!


by bobswern on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:20:15 PM EST

Re: I've been a big advocate... (2.00 / 6)

Maybe so.  At the least a cooling off period would be wise.  This place has had my blood up.  I had a non-troll diary deleted in twenty minutes yet I see complete and utter filth prosper indefinitely.

Madness.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:25:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been a big advocate... (2.00 / 3)

You've actually had a diary deleted? What was it?


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been a big advocate... (2.00 / 3)

I relayed the John Edwards story.  I didn't endorse the damned thing!  I just said that if it were true he wouldn't be the VP, and his wife sure as hell didn't need that right now.

Being aware of what the Republicans will hit us with isn't the same thing as peddling smears.  I'm amazed that that got deleted yet so many other things don't.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't sweat it (2.00 / 3)

the internets aren't srs bidness.  Certainly not this site.


by JJE on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:21:58 PM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 4)

C'mon, don't be a quitter. If you don't like the tenor of some of the commenters, just ignore them. But don't LEAVE. I stay here because the wingbats ARE allowed, but it would suck if it meant it lost ALL the progressive voices with it. Yours is one of the strongest.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:26:39 PM EST

bye reaper! (2.00 / 5)

thanks for the good work.  i didnt usually agree with you - but you're definitely 'one of the good eggs.'

good luck.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:32:15 PM EST

Re: bye reaper! (2.00 / 3)

Thank you.  Be well.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

GBCW (2.00 / 6)

Never saw if you answered my comment to you in grassrootsorganizer's diary the other day, Reaper--I wrote it and left the house, and by the time I got back the whole diary had been deleted.  But if you know of a good site for substantive discussion with a minimum of talking points, I'd love to join you there.

In the meantime, keep up the good work wherever you end up.  You're a rare voice of sanity and moderation around these parts.

best,
Koan


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:49:18 PM EST

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 2)

Over at Ars Technica, sure.  It's a geek/tech enthusiast site.  However, the "Soap Box" forum is all politics.  It is not a liberal or conservative site.  All perspectives are welcome, though the place leans heavily to the left.  There's members from all over the world.  I've been a proud Arsian since late 2001.

It's an incredible community.  I recommend Ars Technica to anybody who enjoys discourse and learning for their own sake.

http://www.arstechnica.com is the frontpage.
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/foru ms for the forums.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 5)

grassrootsorganizer had a diary deleted? What the heck was it about?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:01:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 5)

Similar to mine.  He said goodbye, asked that the last one out get the lights.

The place has gone to hell and gone.  He said so and it was deleted.  I alluded to that in my diary above.  I fully expect this to be deleted as well.

What was funny was that he was on the Rec List.  Eventually it just became an odd blank slot on the list.  Kinda funny.

If you wanna see that happen again, Rec mine.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (1.80 / 5)

I think you'll be seeing me around arstechnica when I get the chance. Very impressed with the forum and the level of discourse. Hope you can vouche for me when I post over there!

It didn't hurt that the first thread I really read had this as an introduction.

Recently I've started to read the news again, and I have found myself drawing a comparison between Obama's situation and the cannabis reform movement. Both movements are hampered by fear and ignorance.

Now THAT's what I'm talking about.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I wondered what happened... (2.00 / 2)

to that diary. I was in total agreement with him/her.

I was waiting to find out who actually deleted the diary, the diarist or admin, before I decided whether or not to continue to visit this site. So, you know for sure it was admin?


by Liberal Monk on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wondered what happened... (2.00 / 3)

The diarist in question, Grassrootsorganiser, has confirmed for a fact it was an admin.

But don't leave. We need an organised fightback here


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:03:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wondered what happened... (2.00 / 4)

absolutely 100% sure it was the admins.  I know Grassrootsorganizer personally!  (-:  And not only deleted, but banned.  

And what's interesting to me is the diary was not meant to trash the site but to bemoan how far it had drifted away from what it once was.  And the solutions are quite simple -- ban the obvious trolls and respond quickly to the obvious troll diaries.  

you see, it all starts and ends with the trolls -- with those whom we all know come here with no other agenda but to act out on personal vendattas and disrupt productive discourse. They swarm with their sock puppets to uprate hate-filled diaries.  

And even the most reasonable disciplined people can't completely ignore them because the garbage they post then sits unchallenged and self-promoted.  So that sets off the "what to do about the troll" diaries as well as "I am not a troll" diaries some sincere and some not, and eventually it just becomes too tiresome to wade through it all.

We should be building momentum here to victories in November -- if not invested in an Obama victory, then to victories down the ticket or greater investment in progressive issues or productive ways to hold Obama's feet to the fire.  But we cannot build that momentum in this forum if things continually digress into addressing the "troll problem."

I honestly believe the GOP is handing us our hat here --


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:09:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 2)

Yet, jacob freeze and chancecoke are free to post their screeds on here whenever they like. Shows where the loyalty of the mods belongs. The hell with it, I'm outta here too.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:43:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: GBCW (2.00 / 3)

I'm sorry to report that Grassrootsorganizer was banned for daring to suggest that the site was sapping energy from her will to win in November.  That or she should never have mentioned the site "jumping the shark" with "why my inner child doesn't trust Obama" diaries.  

Go ahead and look at her comment pages to judge for yourself if she should have been banned.  
http://www.mydd.com/user/grassrootsorgan izer/comments


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:11:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for raising this (2.00 / 3)

Her post was entirely reasonable, and content driven

Yet trolls like Rankles continue to trash diaries like this unmoderated..

And people like Reaperbot want to leave.

What's the opposite of a strike? Can we have a work-in on MYDD?


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent idea! (2.00 / 4)

Someone should write a diary on this but crosspost it so it can be referenced in the event that the original is somehow, um, lost. Perhaps something along the lines of "Taking back MyDD?"

As I am new here, I would not be able to contribute a diary for a bit, but I would be willing to start up a blog that could be linked to in a comment or someone else's diary.  I am anxious to write up my opinions on what is being lost and gained through use of internet forums like this one and how the GOP is using progressive forums to disrupt and promote rancor, especially when said forums are poorly moderated.


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:29:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent idea! (2.00 / 2)

Great. Do you want to set up a blogger page on that! I'll join immediately


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 5)

You'll be missed. I've only just started posting here, but I've been reading for a while, and you've always been a voice of reason.


by Cincinnatus on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:56:27 PM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 3)

Thank you for saying so.  If you're at all Geek-inclined, give Ars Technica a try.  Fun place.  Great community.  Fun, little noise in the signal.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 11:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Same here Reaper... (2.00 / 8)

...I have decided not to visit this place as much as I did.  It has become the definition of insanity....trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

It's too bad because there are some extremely knowledgeable and dedicated individuals around these parts...I've been hitting Kos and I think I will be spending some time at C40...

Hopefully some house cleaning will be performed around here and we can get back to business by concentrating on the future instead of rehashing the past.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:06:27 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 2)

Good luck, I've been enjoying Ars Technica for many years. You often have interesting things to say, my advice is to skip the troll hunting. Most of the people here who disagree with you are not your enemy.


by souvarine on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:12:06 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (none / 0)

once again, i think you've really nailed the problem for 'both sides'.  the mission here shouldn't be 'troll-hunting'. they can be ignored.


by swissffun on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:15:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 5)

Reaper, hate to see you go, but I understand your reasons. You were/are a great asset to this site and without you It's going to be hard to help keep this place balanced.


by venician on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:12:39 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 6)

C'mon, Reaper, the battle is what makes it interesting.  I came here in part because a spirited debate was lacking on other sites.  The rational people here still grossly outnumber the true jackasses.


by rfahey22 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:53:20 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 5)

Agreed, stick around and help keep the garbage to the side.   Reaper, you had a tough one the other day, but any rational person knows you're in the right; smears about our Nominee based on speculation and conspiracy theories dont flippin fly and deserves to be called out.   But I admit, my reasons are selfish, I dont want to be outnumbered by the trolls, bitter fools, and republican operatives.   Consider sticking around as helping random lurkers know what is and isn't legitimate.  If not, peace and I will check out that site for some knowledge


by KLRinLA on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 01:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think his point (2.00 / 5)

is that the trolls win out sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I spend a little time here and end up on the verge of tears because of how many disgusting comments from "Democrats" about Obama there are. The Lakrosse, catfish, engels of this site do have the effect they want to have, even if I don't let them show it. They do inject some doubt in me that Obama can't win. He's being sabotaged by some in his own party. We're going to wake up on November 5th, hear McCain's victory speech all over the place and be bombarded with "I told you so's" all over the place.

So I have to back away from here, go have a cappuccino in the Piazza Navona with my cousin and his girlfriend or take a walk through the ruins of the Forum to clear my head. Now I'm starting to think I may need more backing away time.

I just want it to be November so I can make the decision as to whether or not I'll ever come back or will I be an American-born member of the Italian Parliament.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:24:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think his point (2.00 / 2)

Yes, but just keep in mind that it's a handful of people who apparently get off on that sort of thing.  They have no power over this process.  Tell them they're idiots and move on - if it doesn't phase them, it shouldn't phase you.


by rfahey22 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

and they control this place (none / 0)

and keep honest discussion from happening...so fine, let then have MyDD. We'll go somewhere else.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 5)

Forget it, Jake. This is a business. Flame wars mean page views.

Best of luck.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 12:59:17 AM EST

I've come so close to writing this diary (1.88 / 9)

on several occasions. I know exactly how you feel. I've opted to stay because if I left I'd really miss  a lot of the sane people I've gotten to know.

Well, I do hope you decide to return at some point. Best of luck to you, in any case.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 01:16:01 AM EST

Re: I've come so close to writing this diary (2.00 / 2)

Sricki,  although you are a staple here I think it is best for the internets that you do move on.

I dont see this site ever changing, sure we have some nice moments here and there, but for the most part we are all grasping at straws.

I think the damage was done by the whole Ban/Restriction back and forth, then was made worse when it seemed all GOP and/or PUMA attacks on the DNC/Obama were never addressed or taken down.

Jerome said often we would get a new system that would be easier to post with, easier to mojo, and ability no TR a diary.

We got nothing.

What are we trying to prove now?

I will be checking out DemocraticUnderground today.

Alot of my friends from www.theyoungturks.com go there.

Cliff Schecter now works for Firedoglake,  so they must be making some good moves there too.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 01:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 2)

we rarely agree, but i totally appreciate your sentiment. it's unpleasant for 'both sides' of the fence it seems - those 150% for Obama during the primaries and expecting that from everyone now; and those that support him now but not with the same passion and with a more critical eye.

i can see how frustrated the 150% crowd must get, but also recognise that the troll-hunting atmosphere has a lot of collateral damage, including increasing stress for the 'hunter'.

i hope you'll stay around.


by swissffun on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:24:03 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures (2.00 / 4)

I relate to your post, but don't be so all-or-nothing about it.  If you find it's affecting your sanity then chill out for a bit, but come back.

Look upthread - see how your diary has encouraged a couple of morans?  Don't do that.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 02:42:26 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 1)

My comment on this diary disappeared into the ether without any sort of error message.  Was this a technical error or an HR or did the intertubes eat it?


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:07:53 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 5)

I am really sorry to see you go. I have been noticing that many of the people I come here to listen and talk to are not here as much. Postings by C4O have dropped off and many of the thoughtful and wonderful Obama supporters seem to be leaving as well. This is very sad.


The Moose is on the loose. "And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 03:56:55 AM EST

you're dead right (2.00 / 5)

As Todd once said, "why should you care? you guys won".

Even the mods are buying more into the soap opera drama than worrying about promoting the Democratic platform.

Why should we expect basic message board moderation from that kind of attitude?

Best of luck if you leave. I'm not even that much into the nitty gritty of politics, but MyDD makes it damn easy to break a story when the vast majority of the diaries are interfighting livejournalesque b.s.


by upstate girl on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 04:17:15 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 4)

Sorry to hear that you're leaving.

This place has real potential but the recent troll revival is all too annoying. I notice how slow and counterproductive it is here-

hope you dont leave completely, but i totally understand why you would.


by alyssa chaos on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 04:41:01 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 5)

Two words: Todd Beeton

Right or wrong, worth coming here to read him.


by heynonny on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 04:58:28 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 4)

Reaper sorry to see you go, bu I totally understand.  I used to spend a lot of time here, no longer.  The rec list usually contains pie fights and nothing substantial. It is really sad to see an once great site become a meta moaning board.


by temptxan on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:16:58 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 2)

Yo Reaper, hold on before you bolt. Half the fun of this place are the folks who put fingers to keyboard and announce to the world they really are idiots.

"Everyone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege."

I agree the insanity/idiocy sometimes over powers the rational, but where else are you going to go for a laugh or two :)


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:48:09 AM EST

One Last thought (2.00 / 3)

Linfar said here, in a threatening manner, that you 'won't be around here much longer'.

Please stay, just to prove that threat wrong


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:52:22 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 6)

Wow!  check it out!  I can comment, if not yet recommend.  Awesome!  

Myself, I'm starting to wonder who are the real trolls and who are the valued posters on this site.  It appears one can chew up band width, post nothing but baseless screed and undermine the progressive agenda with smears, lies and "concern" and do so with impunity here.

But the people who come here to promote a progressive agenda, work the 50 state strategy, support the Democratic nominee, engage in intelligent debate, share informed opinion and save the country? meh, not so much.  


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:05:26 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 1)

This diary just got bounced from the top of the rec list.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 08:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 1)

Now it's back up. God knows how this blogging software works.


by duende on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 3)

for the lognterm good of the site, I'd like to see it stay up there.  Normally I think these types of goodbye diaries and meta-discussions are annoying, but this one is critical in my estimation.  


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:27:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Allstate (2.00 / 1)

Totally OT, but do you think most folks are aware of Allstate's bad behavior post-Katrina?  I'm surprised to see an add for them front and center on this site!


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:29:40 AM EST

Thank you Reaperbot (2.00 / 3)

"The Democratic Party isn't the story here anymore, we are.  That would be fine if it was constructive.  It isn't.  Perhaps this place will heal and become useful again.  There's a lot of talent here, but there isn't any moderation to speak of.  I've been active on the internets for years.  I'm used to seeing appropriate direction and care on the part of administrators.  Where it is lacking you wind up with something very much like this."

___________

Over the past several weeks, in fits and spurts, this place has come to resemble the "Dancing with the Stars" forums.  (don't ask me how I know that!)

I don't think any of the legitimate pstes here want the discussion to be about us, but it's damn for it not to be when good folks are subjected to ongoing personal attacks.

And AGAIN, doubt, dissent, questions -- these are good things.  Smears, conspiracy theories, denegrating labels, conflation of issues -- these are not good things.  

It's understandable if someone isn't exactly overjoyed to jump on the Obama bandwagon and yet still wishes to participate here.  So, if Obama isn't your guy then what keeps one returning to a forum like this?  What are the issues and contests that matter most?

The point is, the trolls care about nothing but tearing down the Democratic candidate, it's as simple as that.  And I'm totally flummoxed as to why they are tolerated.  


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:48:22 AM EST

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 3)

Basically folks we are in a rabbit hole where nothing is as it seems. Where I sit we have the most exciting, dynamic candidate that the Dems have put up in my lifetime (born 1967) and we are acting like we are doomed. Where is the disconnect here? And why can't Jerome have something, anything positive to say? You would never the see the leading bloggers on the other side trashing their nominee the way you see it here.

There are so many reasonable people here too, from both sides of the primary wars, that know the primary is OVER and we have to move on. Sricki, canadian gal, reaperbot, duende, thatpurplestuff, spacemanspiff, bobswern, etc etc etc. PLEASE LETS STEP IT UP FOLKS. I am here and ready to go myself so lets try to raise this thing up again. Sorry to be the cheerleader but I am pissed and want to be constructive instead of negative.


by wasder on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 09:59:45 AM EST

The rabbit hole (2.00 / 5)

Thank you.  Exactly.  

I'm actually in the process of deleting like a madwoman things I posted about the Obamas back in February on a PERSONAL FORUM (you know, where folks go to vent on their PERSONAL issues).  The primary wars made me NUTS at the guy and I couldn't understand how in the hell the party could be going down this track.

But, it did.  And in retrospect it makes sense.  The guy has ground game like nobody's business.  He can raise money, he doesn't lose his cool or flub too often, he's energized the youth and AA vote, something Dems have been dying to do for close to twenty years.  

It took only hearing Clinton throw her support behind Obama to move me over, and I probably would have anyway if she was still fighting his nomination.  Why?  Because I never once forgot what's at stake here.  It's so difficult believe any Democrat could.


Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
by GRO on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The rabbit hole (2.00 / 3)

Really nicely said GRO.


by wasder on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Catch you on the flipside (2.00 / 5)

I try to stay out of drama, but it's admittedly really difficult here.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:01:55 AM EST

Re: Catch you on the flipside (2.00 / 2)

haven't seen you in a while Draco--should have added you to above list. Staying out of drama is good, but right now we need to perhaps be a bit more vocal in setting the tone around here.


by wasder on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, been offline (2.00 / 1)

This is my first time online in about four days; I just moved to a new place and don't have home internet set up yet.

I'll try to maintain some civility around here.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, been offline (2.00 / 2)

Right on. I would love to read some more posts from you.


by wasder on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:33:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 2)

STRIKE! STRIKE! STRIKE! STRIKE!


"But not me personally were those cheers for"
by QTG on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:29:59 AM EST

I am Reaper0Bot0 (2.00 / 1)


by JJE on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 10:32:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greener Pastures [UPDATE] (2.00 / 5)

If you've read this far you will have seen how rankles has done everything s/he can to make sure reaper doesn't change his mind about leaving. rankles makes the trolls purpose crystal clear. They want to destroy this site as an effective voice for progressive issues. Sadly enough, they seem to be succeeding.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 11:41:01 AM EST

Just a little bit longer... (2.00 / 5)

It ain't all that bad, and it's often quite good.

You're gonna go through phases in discussions like this - laughter and tears and rage and joy - but it's the spice of life.  I'm frankly a little down atm over being alternately welcomed and  misunderstood and shunned amongst an off-site subgroup of our little world here, but without the downs the ups don't mean anything.  All the stretching of the old soul makes me ponder more deeply and I end up with more respect and understanding of folks.  Even if when it is only an understanding of their flaws it helps me subtract those from their views and see the person beneath.

Even our dear old catfish2 and I have found a point or two of agreement of late.  IRL I also recently got a demonstration of the barbs those little buggers carry - ouch! I'm sure there is a parallel in there somewhere... ;~)

Take a breather, go get some sunshine, but don't "go" go.

Stay.  Just a little bit longer...

(I see I made your list twice.  Thanks, but I try to discourage my other personality from taking over the keyboard you can't stop me forever!  Tyrant!  Someday I will be free and the world will know my wrath! BACK INTO YOUR CAGE, FOUL BEAST!  Sorry 'bout that...)

-chris "I'm a schizophrenic and so am I!" blask


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on M