Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays

NO. The shooter at a Knoxville Church yesterday didn't open fire on a bunch of churchgoers killing two and injuring seven, because he didn't like "the liberal movement." This  is inaccurate  and it slides over the reality in a way that borders on falsehood.

The man who opened fire in a Tennesee church hated gays

The church had just put a sign up welcoming gays! Yeah. The shooter left a 4 page letter in his car saying he didn't like "the liberal movement," but  this is often code for a social agenda which fosters equal rights for gay people and that specifically was the trigger issue.

This is the headline that is more accurate:

Several people shot at gay affirming church in Knoxville. Shooter may have targeted church because of its support for gays.

Of course, this headline only appeared in a gay newspaper Out and About

When Kitty Genovese in 1964 was stabbed to death 25 times by a man in Queens-- while 38 bystanders looked on it and did nothing-- the case was reported in the national media as the worst case of bystander apathy in American history. In all the media publicity and furor, nowhere was the fact that Kitty Genovese was a lesbian, who had been prone to loud fights with her girlfriend, ever mentioned.

The bystanders who refused to help her as she was stabbed to death refused to come to the aid of a lesbian.

Bystander apathy was a phony issue. However, it was widely believed because a) no one  bothered to find out she was gay or b) if they did find out, refused to say so publicly.

As of 8 am today, two of the victims have died, two were treated and released and five remain in critical or serious condition at University of Tennessee Medical Center.

As a result of  the shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church at its Sunday morning service, Linda Kraeger, 61, died last night at at UT Medical Center. Greg McKendry, 60, died when he confronted the gunman as he entered the church.

The shooter, Jim D. Adkisson 58, of Powell, Tenneessee, shot eight people with a 12 guage shotgun after firing 3 shells. Of those shot, all were adults: four women and three men. Although at the time of the shooting a group of children were singing from a church production of "Annie."

The FBI is assisting in the investigation which is required in a hate crime.

The church is the site of gay affirming activities. A member of the congregation wrote in a national blog that the church just recently put up a sign welcoming gays. One of the goals of the church's long range plan is to:

Increase congregational participation in human rights programs forgay/lesbian/transgendered persons.
   

"Elrod," who posted a comment on the blog The Moderate Voice says he is a member of the church. He said he was not present on Sunday, but did add:

all we know right now is that the suspect was not connected to the church in any way. I have no idea if the man had some sort of political or cultural agenda (TVUUC had just put up a sign welcoming gays to the congregation), or if it's just some lunatic acting for no reason at all.

The church  is home to Knoxville's Spectrum Café, which is an eight year old social gathering place for Knoxville area high school youth who:

support the principles of diversity, tolerance, and the worth and dignity of every human being.

Teens who come to Spectrum respect each others' ideas, religious views, race, sexual orientations, abilities, and ethnic backgrounds. The group welcomes:

self-identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, or who are questioning their sexual or gender identity.

The Knoxville Monday Gay Men's Group meets at the church each Monday from 7:30 p.m. to 9 p.m.

David Massey, who  is one of the coordinators of Spectrum Café, also known as "Spectrum Diversi-Tea and Coffee House," said recently in the Unitarian Universalist World Magazine:

We advertise it as a safe harbor for teens who identify as LBGTQ and their straight friends and allies, plus any other youth who are being harassed for religious beliefs, appearance, or abilities.
 

At least seven people were shot - Becky Thompson with UT Medical Center confirmed to NBC News that seven people were transported from the church to UTMC for medical treatment.

http://outandaboutnewspaper.com/article. php?id=2803



Display:


Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

The whole thing is horrible....no matter the cause.
Though, it is interesting that there does seem to be a lack of information about the church being pro-gay (and this being, potentially, the instigating factor in the attack).
The next few days of reporting on the incident should be telling.

(btw, I think it was 3 shots...not 13)

rec'd


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:16:42 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Kysen, it was a 12 guage. It was reported that he fired 13 rounds. I am not a gun person.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I am not much of a gun person either, but, the reports that I have seen/read have all said 3 rounds/shots fired. Also, so far as I have read, only 3 spent rounds were found amongst close to 100 shells recovered.

Horrible, no matter how many times he fired.


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 2)

I'm a gun person and I can tell you that there would be a lot more dead and wounded if he had fired 13 shots.

You might not want to read further if you have a good imagination.

The number of pellets in a shell range from 9-41, depending on the size of the shell and the gauge of the shotgun. Most deer hunters use buckshot that ranges from 9-18. The damage caused by a shotgun in an enclosed space like a church is a really scary thought. It's a wonder more people weren't killed outright.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

All I have to go on is what was reported in the newespaper. I am not a gun person.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Might want to check cnn.com, msnbc, knoxnews.com and other news sites. Every source I have seen/read has reported 3 shots/rounds fired.

Seems to me that your source contains a typo.

Doesn't really have anything to do with being a gun person or not...more to do with having a good editor.  ;)


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

From the cnn site - "Investigators found 76 shotgun shells in the church, Owen said. The gunman had shot three rounds from a 12-gauge shotgun that was brought into the church hidden in a guitar case."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/28/chur ch.shooting/index.html

You might want to update your diary.

There is support for your other contention in that same diary.

" Owen said Adkisson apparently acted alone and chose the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church because of recent publicity about activities there that Adkisson considered liberal.

Owen said police found Adkisson's letter in his vehicle, and that Adkisson signed it but did not address it to anyone. The letter specifically expressed hatred for gay people, Owen said."


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:13:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for this. I knew the Kitty Genovese story and still had no idea she was a lesbian. Yet another example of why homophobia should not be allowed to fester.


by Cincinnatus on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:19:30 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

homophobia in part survives on inaacurate reporting and a lack of understanding about hate crimes against gays.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I too had never heard that Kitty Genovese was a lesbian.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Nor had I. Thank you for providing this information.


by DaleA on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:54:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stunning. (none / 0)

I'm a social psychologist and I didn't know this.  I have never read this in any of the literature.  Of course, pro-social behavior is outside my area of specialization.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:41:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Being familiar with the Kitty Genovese case, I have never been aware of her sexual orientation.  Thanks for bringing light to this issue and the 7-27-08 similarity.


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:35:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I've never seen any mention of her sexuality, and it's a pretty studied incident with very influential commentary.  Can I get a citation?


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 01:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

NO Linfar:
This wasn't code:

"The shooter left a 4 page letter in his car saying he didn't like "the liberal movement," but  this is often code for a social agenda which fosters equal rights for gay people and that specifically was the trigger issue."

Why try to fudge the issue by bringing in just one aspect of the liberal viewpoint. What don't you understand about:

"The shooter left a 4 page letter in his car saying he didn't like "the liberal movement"

This was basically an act of right wing terrorism aimed at "liberals" of whatever sexual inclination.


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:27:01 PM EST

There are lots of liberal churches (2.00 / 1)

So why choose this one?

I'd give you a hint, but the diarist already did.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:33:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There are lots of liberal churches (none / 0)

Could be he just went to the closest, or anything really.  This is kind of silly anyway.  The shooter isn't described as the type that makes distinctions between liberals and gays; for him, to target one is to target the other.  


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 01:31:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Have either of you seen the 4-page letter? Maybe we should wait and see it before we conclude what sort of "liberal movement" he hated and whether this was or wasn't "code".


by LakersFan on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:33:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

You are so far off base, it would be laughable, if it wasn't so serious. Read the diary, there happen to be little things like facts in there as opposed to cherised beliefs.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

So now you believe in facts, but when you posted about Obama's prayer being stolen you claimed he released it on purpose. You have lost all credibility with me.


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

You hold grudges, don't you V. Too bad. Living in the past isn't very miuch fun.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Mentioning a diary you posted only a couple of days ago isn't living in the past. Your recent diaries show you have a bit of a problem with grudges yourself. It's obvious you are making an effort to work through it, but that doesn't excuse you taking a holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone else.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

It seems to me you are the one who is living in the past and can't get over the fact that Obama won the primary. Your last diary/rant about how Obama's speeches mean nothing proved that. I mean really, what else does a polician have but speechs to inspire and get one's message out?


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:51:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

So Linfar you KNOW what was in this guys mind. I like you am operating on the basis of available info. This guy allegedly said "liberal movement" in this note not gay movement. I read your diary. It was entirely speculation on the motives of this guy. Perhaps you'd like to tell me what the facts were about what this guy was thinking rather than your extrapolations.  


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

There is support for linfar's premise. This came from a cnn article and quoted the police chief.

Owen said Adkisson apparently acted alone and chose the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church because of recent publicity about activities there that Adkisson considered liberal.

Owen said police found Adkisson's letter in his vehicle, and that Adkisson signed it but did not address it to anyone. The letter specifically expressed hatred for gay people, Owen said.

The case is being investigated as a hate crime, police said.

Perhaps you should apologize now.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Certainly not. The whole tenor of this diary about what was frightful crime which could easily have killed some of the kids up front was hysterical. I didn't see the item on CNN although it will be doubtless on the evening news. I just don't like jumping to conclusions based on nothing which was the situation when this diary was originally posted. I'm sorry but that's how I see it. You are of course welcome to your view. It's a free country.      


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:25:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, linfar... (2.00 / 1)

For pointing out that this was a hate crime. I just don't get how some people can hate other people that much. It's saddening and sickening. :-(


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:30:30 PM EST

Re: Thank you, linfar... (2.00 / 2)

Yes. But as you can see in one comment already. We are going to have the fight all over again about whether or not gays were the target. I dunno what it will take for some "liberals" to get the message. Gays are targets of hate crimes


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, linfar... (none / 0)

Linfar that may be true and I wouldn't dispute it for a moment in the wider sense. But at this moment we don't know that this was an attack on gays although you've clearly made up your mind already.


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:13:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, linfar... (none / 0)

Please see comment below. You are the one who has made up his mind. The facts are there. this was a gay hate crime. He says in his letter he hates gays. As Bishop Rock has pointed out there are a ton of liberal churches, only one in the vicinity had a sign outside saying "We welcome gays." What I'd like to know is why it is this so hard for you to believe??


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, linfar (none / 0)

The concern is directed at your exclusivity.  This is more than a gay issue, we're all targets of this man's hate.  Yes, the media is underreporting the homophobia, but that's more because it's obvious than because of some political agenda.  It does in fact go without saying that a rightist nutjob hates gays. Seriously, linfar, don't chop us up with nuances and distinctions, Adkisson certainly didn't.
This is a new declaration of war.  This is bigger than the old gay-bashing, which none of us approved of but most of us could avoid long enough to stop thinking about it.  There's no running away; we're all, together, the target.  
Do you get the message?  Not just some incongruous splinter, linfar: all of us.  
Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 01:59:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is chilling. (2.00 / 1)

I live 15 minutes down the road from this church.

If I actually went to church, it would be at a Unitarian Universalist congregation, so this is probably where I would have been yesterday morning.

This is the face of hate.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:38:22 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

Wow. BR. Yes. This is the face of hate. He hated liberals, but gays were the ultimate trigger. I mean you might not know a liberal when you look at someone. But you can find a church that welcomes gays!!!!


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:40:02 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Linfar:
Have you got a victim complex or something. There are hate crimes perpetrated against gays, of course, as there are hate crimes against blacks, jews and other minorities. This was a frightful event by someone who is clearly a right wing nut case who hates liberals of any persuasion including gays. Zeroing in on the "GAY" possibility entirely based on speculation seems premature to me at least.  
by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

Do you have some sort of beef with Linfar?
You've posted, essentially, the same thing at least 3 times in this diary.
Not that I really care one way or the other...
by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I'm responding to his follow up comments if you'd take the time to follow the thread. And I have no problem with this guy. All I know of him is that he occasionally posts some OTT comments about Obama and in this case posted an OTT diary which I commented upon. I thought the general idea here.    


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Anyone who, as you say, 'takes the time to follow the thread'...would see you saying the same thing in 3 more (I think it is 'more' at this point) comments. Which is totally within your rights to do...it just makes ya look like you have some sort of beef with linfar.


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

kysen, Obama true believers are pissed at me for a diary on Sunday in which I asked for specifcs rather than pretty speeches. You know that old add about" It's not nice to fool Mother Nature--and there is a big storm shown/ Well some people believe you cannot ask questions or want answers from Barack Obama. Someone even thought I was dissing hinm for using his middle name. Sometimes the truly petty side of human beings come out on blogs. What else can you say?


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

If I am recalling correctly....otto is not an 'Obama true believer'. And, frankly...it is not just the hard core Obama folks who took issue with your last diary (I rolled my eyes at some of it's contents...but did not feel compelled to comment).

As far as using Obama's middle name...MANY do use it as an intended diss (because, as you say...'the truly petty side of humans come out on the blogs'). Whether you meant it as such or not...it is easy to see why people would read it that way.

But, in my opinion, all of that is neither here nor there as far as THIS diary is concerned.


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Kysen, I did not use his middle name in any way   other than when I use the middle name of anyone for emphasis. I have absolutely no problem or issue with Obama's middle name.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Nor do I, but...were I to use it on a blog...I would not be surprised in the least to have people react adversely to it.

The fact is that, more often than not, when his middle name is used it is used as an intended slight. It is petty, ridiculous and small-minded of those who use it as such...but, there are o'plenty petty, ridiculous and small-minded people out there.

As it is, I see no reason to use it other than to cause discord. It's not like anyone will be confused as to who you are talking about if you leave his middle name out. Even if it is not meant as an insult, to act as though one does not realize that it will be taken as such by many is disingenuous.

I find that just using his last name works just fine. Trust me, EVERYONE will know who you are talking about.  ;)


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

There is no speculation. He said in his letter he hates gays. The church has a sign outside that says we welcome gays. I mean what else do you want??????


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Linfar: are gays gay's first and liberals second, or liberal's first and gay's second because he also in his letter says he hates liberals. His letter from what we know of it is clearly the rantings of a nut case. What I want is a recognition that this is a recognition that the motives for this heinous act are an all encompassing jumble from what I can see. You may think it it's all about gays I don't.


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

This may come as a shock to you but not all gays are liberals. Look at Dick Cheney's daughter. So no, targeting liberals and targeting gays are very different.  


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Knoxville News-Sentinel:

Jim D. Adkisson, 58, of Powell wrote a four-page letter in which he stated his "hatred of the liberal movement," Owen said. "Liberals in general, as well as gays."

Owen said Adkisson specifically targeted the church for its beliefs, rather than a particular member of the congregation.

"It appears that church had received some publicity regarding its liberal stance," the chief said. The church has a "gays welcome" sign and regularly runs announcements in the News Sentinel about meetings of the Parents, Friends and Family of Lesbians and Gays meetings at the church.

The church's Web site states that it has worked for "desegregation, racial harmony, fair wages, women's rights and gay rights" since the 1950s. Current ministries involve emergency aid for the needy, school tutoring and support for the homeless, as well as a cafe that provides a gathering place for gay and lesbian high-schoolers.

The man did not target liberals and liberal churches.

He targeted one specific liberal church.

It happened to be the highest-profile gay-friendly church in the area.  His manifesto railed against gays.

This was a hate crime, much as you want to cover your eyes and ignore it.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Thank you Bishop Rock. And who exactly on this comment thread would like to now say this isn't worth discussing for itself.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Wrong question.  What a man hates is essentially a demon, an imaginary construct within himself.  To say liberals or gays completely ignores the shooter.  He was not attacking people at all, from his own perspective.  He went for the roots of a monolithic evil being that he knows beyond all doubt is the source of all, not just some but every last bit, of his pain and suffering and hardship and everything bad in his life ever.  Did he call that tormentor 'liberals'?  Yes.  Did he call that tormentor 'gays'?  Also yes.  he also called it 'Democrats' and likely a wide assortment of unprintable things as well, but it was all one thing in his mind.  


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 02:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

sad. and disgusting. I was disgusted at the act before [somehow i was taught that churches were sacred so a church shooting to me is so chilling] when I had no idea about the circumstances.

Its a sad day when churches are targeted for welcoming people to its doors.


by alyssa chaos on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:45:13 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

and...this took place during a youth program.
How many years have politicians and radio
harped about "the homosexual agenda"?
I was wondering how freepers etc. were playing this...I checked them out...
I was not surprised...
It is part of our history that the finger of blame be pointed on those "that are not like us" for the source of our misery...
Had this NOT taken place in a church it probably would be another case of "nothing to see here move along."

All I can offer is this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZJ-kLKut 9E


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:51:54 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 2)

Thanks, Lin -

Regardless of the post-diary discussion, I personally can see the logic of your argument, and thank you for posting this diary.  Having seen 4 hate crimes against Gay men in Sacramento in as many months, and having lived in the South for years, I know first hand that hate against the LGBT Community still exists (I was gay-bashed in Atlanta) ... thanks for bringing this instance of it to light.

Dizzy


-- Dizzy
Proudly cross-posting everything to:
http://www.computerqueen.net/
http://clintonistasforobama.blogspot.com /
by DizzyQueen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 03:58:15 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

linfar....
For what ever reason....this attack hits you "down to the bone"....(as it does so many of us ..)

Perhaps..just perhaps....
You may see how dangerous an Obama victory is perceived...
It IS about Hope...it is about confronting both the fears and the optimism that we, as a nation, truly can believe our Hopes are greater than our Fears.
Maybe we won't pass this test. But in my 58 year
lifetime...we may never get another chance.

FUNK the WAR
and all levels of hate...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_ifm_Vg5 uY


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:14:46 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I am voting for him, nogo. but I do have concerns. Pretty speeches about world peace and hope, etc. don't do it for me anymore. If you read Jerome today, Cuomo is also concerend about the lack of specificity. I want to know what he is going to do. EXACTLY-- As much as possible. I don't think that is too much to ask, do you? And positions on a website are just so much hot air. Until he commits publicly he can write all the positions he wants. Just like the party platform.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Ok, linfar. Just exactly what do you want if it's not spoken or written words? What do you mean by 'commits publicly'? Is there some concrete step he can take that will mollify your concerns? I'm being very serious here. I'd like to hear just what he has to do to satisfy you.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I would add, have you read the Blueprint for Change [PDF]?

It's pretty much all of Obama's policy proposals collected in one location, and many of them are very specific and very concrete.

He doesn't talk a whole lot of specifics in speeches, sure.  Nobody does.  McCain doesn't, Edwards didn't, Clinton didn't.  That's not what speeches are for.  Speeches are for inspiring people, not boring them.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Yes, I have read it. You should have addressed your reply to linfar. She may not see it now.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I was adding onto your post.  She'll see it when/if she reads yours.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 04:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

She just wants attention, like most of other  deadenders.


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

While 'deadenders' do, indeed, exist on MYDD (and elsewhere)....linfar is not one of them.

I don't always agree with what she puts forth...but, truth be told...I don't always agree with what anyone puts forth.


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Linfar from time to time has posted some rather silly/nasty comments about Obama that even to me, a Clintonista, sound a bit OTT which quite honestly was also true of this diary. This probably has something to do with how she is perceived.


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I know you from dkos and what you are doing here is confusing, but I guess some of your pals have said come on over and trash her. All becaused I don't support Obama the way you would approve. You do not do Obama any good with this. And all you do is help squash discussion of a hate crime towards gays. I find it pitiful.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:39:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I actually agree with most of this.
In fact, I would go so far to say that, in fact, linfar has posted LOTS of rather silly/nasty comments about Obama.

However, in the case of this diary, I think that she has made a legitimate point. This has been further bolstered by recent reports of anti-gay language in his 'letter'.

She has also made it quite clear where she stands as far as getting Obama elected...and she has been shunned by many (Clinton supporters who have NOT made getting Obama elected a goal) for her stand.

I may not always agree with linfar....and she may sometimes outright piss me off (purposeful 'leaking' of his prayer?)...but, I know that she is NOT a PUMA. I know that she was one of the first Clintonistas to throw her support behind Obama when Hillary did the same.....and I know that she is not a McTroll (or any sort of a troll). These days....that's enough for me.  ;)


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

kysen, I was a fledgling newes reporter in California covering Ronald Regan and sent out on to cover his arrival at some event. At this event he suddenly turned and talked to the press. He said his comments were completely off the cuff--only a fellow reporter handed me his printed statement. That was a long time ago by presidential campaign standards. If I believe-- and I do that Obama's prayer was leaked deliberately, and if not deliberately, then the Obama campaign was ready for it-- that is my right. Does that make me a bad Democrat? Does that mean I won't vote for him? The thought police around Obama do not serve him well. And I appreciate your defense of this diary--and me.  


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:11:00 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Which is all the more dissapointing. You are a reporter and chose to post something that you could not verify and that frankly was insulting to Israeli Jews who take the prayer wall and it's integrity VERY seriously. The affect of your opinion that Obama leaked it himself, called into question THEIR integrity. One would suggest that we THINK about the repurcussions of what we write before we post.


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:32:45 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

dear, dear venican, to not consider the idea that it was leaked is beyond naive. I am not insulting anyone--not jews and not the Obama campaign. I am saying that I believe--I believe--the notion that this terrible thing happened to poor Barack and that his campaign never considered the possibility is slightly less crazy than thinking the moon is made out of green cheese.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

venican addendum: what you do not consider here is that I supported Hilary Clinton when the Obama campaign portrayed Hillary and Bill Clinton as racists. I believe his campaign is capable of doing and saying anything that will get him elected. You think they hold the Wailing Wall Sacred?? There is nothing sacred here except getting Obama elected.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:42:29 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Why, yes, I do believe that they hold the Wailing Wall sacred. As do pretty much all who visit and virtually all who leave a prayer there. There is a reason that a personal prayer from the Wailing Wall has NEVER been publicized before....despite the hundreds (if not thousands) of famous persons who have been there. World leaders, politicians, actors, musicians and various royalty....persons with far more recognition that Obama...NONE of their prayers were stolen. There is absolutely ZERO reason that the Obama camp should have worried or thought that his personal prayer would be stolen and put into print.

(ps- this would be an example of something you have written that pisses me off  ;)


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I read everything you write knowing that you supported hillary, and the fact that you can't let go of the primaries clouds everything you write. You  are still trying to beat the "Obama painted bill as racist" drums. The fact that you hold on to that believe is what makes me doubt your integrity. Well that and the fact that you can't see how insulting to Israeli's your accusations are.


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:16:59 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I don't know what more I can say? I would like specificity in proposals he commits to publicly. I am voting for him. So what bugs you so much about my desire for specificity? I find this whole deal that is going down to be like a lynching. Linfar wrote a diary out of hundreds we didn't like. Get her.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:42:01 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

I don't know what more I can say? I would like specificity in proposals he commits to publicly.

What we honestly want to know is what you consider to be unspecific about the proposals he's committed to publicly.

For example:

As president, Obama will create a "contracts and influence" database that will disclose how much federal contractors spend on lobbying, and what contracts they are getting and how well they complete them.

Obama will reform the Child and Dependent Care Tax Credit by making it refundable and allowing low-income families to receive up to a 50 percent credit for their child care expenses.  Coupled with Obama's "Making Work Pay" tax credit, this proposal will help put more money directly in the pockets of hardworking low and middle-income parents.

Invest in a Digital Smart Grid:  Obama will pursue a major investment in our utility grid to enable a tremendous increase in renewable generation and accommodate modern energy requirements, such as reliability, smart metering, and distributed storage.

Reduce Crime Recidivism by Providing Ex-Offender Support Obama will provide job training, substance abuse and mental health counseling to ex-offenders, so that they are successfully re-integrated into society.  Obama will also create a prison-to-work incentive program to improve ex-offender employment and job retention rates.

That's not exactly "hope and change" empty rhetoric.  Those are very specific policy outlines.

Unfortunately, standing at a podium reading the Blueprint for Change out loud isn't going to win a lot of support.  It would just bore a lot of people to death.  So the speeches inspire, and the policy papers give concrete policy details--which is exactly what speeches and policy papers are meant to do, respectively.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Bishop Rock, who is the we??? Who comprises this little vigilante committee that has decided I can't ask questions of Obama even though I will vote for him.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I suspect this kind of reply is what frustrates a lot of people on here, linfar. I know it frustrates me.

I have a great deal of respect for you yet you also frustrate me at times. You write good diaries and not so good ones, like every other diarist on this site. You support Obama and then smear him with baseless smears. You have taken a lot of heat from all sides, including some of your fellow Hillary supporters and have stood firm. Like I said, I respect you and also find you frustrating at times.

Why don't you answer his question instead of focusing on one small flaw you found in the way he wrote it? Why didn't you answer my question above. You dodged that one with this same tactic.

Ok, linfar. Just exactly what do you want if it's not spoken or written words? What do you mean by 'commits publicly'? Is there some concrete step he can take that will mollify your concerns? I'm being very serious here. I'd like to hear just what he has to do to satisfy you.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

With due respect I think you have a problem with all this talk about trashings and lynchings. No one told me to come here and trash you. In fact I don't know you from Adam apart from reading some of your comments which sometimes do seem somewhat irrational. I speak as I have found. Peace be with you.


by ottovbvs on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:29:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

You are dissembling bigtime. you used to attack my on dkos. wassup with that?


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

There's plenty of specificity for those who want to take the time to read the white papers and policy proposals.  

Sounds like an excuse, Linfar.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:54:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I do not trust white papers and policy propsals very much. They are just like the platform.  A lot of words signifying nothing about what the party or the candidate will actually do.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

Now you have completely got me stumped.  You want specificity, but not white papers and policy proposals???

How, then, do you intend to get specificity about what Obama will actually do?

Perhaps through interpretive dance?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Interpretive dance! (none / 0)

Ok, now THAT's some kind of funny!
Thanks for the laugh.  :)
by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

That is exactly why I refered to her as a deadender up thread.


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 10:32:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

mso1 Indie, I am no longer seduced by rhetoric, ok? And I do feel that pretty rhetoric is seductive. It is this very aspect of Obama's candidacy which so many of his supporters "love" that makes me nervous and in fact arouses fear--in me. There is no demagogue in the world who has succeeded without being able to give highly emotional and charged speeches which brings supporters screaming into the streets. I pray that is not Obama. I will vote for him. But I would be much more comfortable with specifics he sticks to. Mario Cuomo in Jerome's diary says the same. What reassures so many, worries me. And if people here were really interested in getting Obama elected they would listen to this concern instead of trying to lynch me for it. Because a lot of people are wary of pretty speeches.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Giving good speeches does not make someone a demagogue. Was FDR a demagogue? Was JFK or MLK? There is absolutely nothing wrong and much right with being able to give a good speech. Twisting that ability into something evil is what is wrong. Whether the speechmaker twists it into something evil or the people who hear him speak try to make it seem evil.

If I go by what you say then the only safe candidate in recent years would have been Bob Dole. Bill Clinton gave really good speeches. Was Bill C. a demagogue? Did this make you suspect him of some hidden motives?

Complaining about someone because they are a good speaker is like complaining about them because they are good looking or intelligent.

Every evil leader during the 20th century had two legs. Obama has two legs. Obama is evil.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:24:12 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Ms101--You are not interested in hearing someone's fear. You want to argue with it. Or say it is unfounded. FDR was not a good speaker. Huey Long was. Hubert Humphrey was not a good speaker--JFK was. And then there was that paper hanger in Germany, you know the one? I am not twisting speechifying into something evil. You are the one twisting my words. It is like you have lost your senses about this. His rhetoric scares me. It is that simple. Why does that horrify you? I can't feel this way and still vote for him? I have to think the way you do about grandiose speeches. C'mon.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:36:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

Com'on, linfar. You are really reaching here. I didn't demand that you see it my way. I asked questions as well and you still won't answer them.

Why is it that people think they can compare Obama to Hitler just because he can give a good speech? Has Obama given speeches that inspire people through the use of hate? Has he been an uber-nationalist? What is there in his rhetoric that scares you? Is he calling for a war against Hillary supporters?

I am not twisting speechifying into something evil. You are the one twisting my words. It is like you have lost your senses about this. His rhetoric scares me. It is that simple. Why does that horrify you?
It doesn't horrify me. I am more bemused than anything. You are the one that says his ability to give a good speech 'scares' you. I'm just trying to understand why that should be something scary.

Do you have a problem attending a church because the pastor gives too good of a sermon? Does Bill Clinton scare you?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:01:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Very well put MS01, now let's see if she will actully answer you.


by venician on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

haha. I never thought bill clinton was such a great speaker :) see I just see lots of things differently. I did think Hillary's last speech was very good. Lin scratching head, trying to think of speakers she likes.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:28:27 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

And once again, you dodge the question. Here is a list of the top 10 American speeches of the 20th century. Which of these people scare you because they gave a good speech? Which one is a demagogue? BTW, your opinion of FDR's rhetorical skills isn't shared by the compilers of that list. He has 5 of the top 50 speeches.

Martin Luther King, Jr. "I Have A Dream"

2 John Fitzgerald Kennedy Inaugural Address

3 Franklin Delano Roosevelt First Inaugural Address

4 Franklin Delano Roosevelt Pearl Harbor Address to the Nation

5 Barbara Charline Jordan 1976 DNC Keynote Address

6 Richard Milhous Nixon "Checkers"

7 Malcolm X "The Ballot or the Bullet"

8 Ronald Wilson Reagan Shuttle ''Challenger'' Disaster Address

9 John Fitzgerald Kennedy Houston Ministerial Association Speech

10 Lyndon Baines Johnson "We Shall Overcome"

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/top100sp eechesall.html


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:39:40 PM EST
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Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I liked Barbara Jordan, thought she was a good speaker. And same with JFK. I never heard FDR or Malcolm. Johnson was boring to me. And Reagan was way to slick to me to ever register as "a good speaker. I don't think this gets us anywhere. Great public speeches do not necessarily mean someone is trustworthy. I just don't believe that. Although I do think Winston Chruchill was able to rally the British public during the darkest times in WWII and that FDR did the same here during the Depression and the war. I guess I see speaking as an ability that in no way tells you the heart or soul of someone--but give you the illusion of same.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:53:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Now we are getting close to agreement. I also believe that the ability to give a good speech doesn't make someone a better person. I don't believe it makes them a bad person either. It's a talent. One of many that are of use to a politician. A good smile and a firm handshake are others. Being a good organizer is another one.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I get this wrong. What I got from the last sentence in your comment was a sense that you fear that Obama's speaking ability may be blinding people to some hidden danger. I can understand your concern in that case. But only if you think he has some hidden agenda that will be detrimental to the country. Do you believe that?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

FDR wasn't a good speaker?

On what planet, linfar?  He was considered a great communicator - and still is.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

all I said was I never heard him. What is up with you?


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 08:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, you said he wasn't a good speaker (none / 0)

FDR was not a good speaker. Huey Long was. Hubert Humphrey was not a good speaker--JFK was.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 03:05:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

kysen, thank you. but it is obvious that some on this diary don't want to talk about this diary. They could care less about gays getting shot point blank in Tennessee. What they want to do is carry on a little grudge fight with me because I don't support Obama in the way they think is appropriate. Poor Obama with supporters like these...


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:37:36 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

I am not in agreement with all linfar diaries...
However,;
this is Not about Obama...or Clinton...

This is about the State of our nation.
The racists and homophobes will not go quietly as they realize their rationalizations built upon sand are being eroded.
Years of prodding..as the economic chickens come home to roost may very well play itself out in the coming months...

There are accidents and coincidences..
That this person chose this church may be an accident, but it is no coincidence.


"harlequin speech of suicide, demanding instantaneous lobotomy"
by nogo postal on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 05:46:07 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

thanks nogo. I appreciate your effort to stick to the subject--which is a serious one. We will see more of this, particularly in the south where hatred of gays is increasinglyh  being preached from  both black and white church pulpits. Even the Sothern Poverty Law Center has done an investigation.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:03:50 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Thank you linfar for this. Gays and lesbians are the most vulnerable part of the liberal coalition. Which is why any Democratic Party candidate trafficing with homophobes is worrying.


by DaleA on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:06:24 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Dale, thanks for saying what I know but wasn't able to say. I do support Obama and I believe he will fight hate crimes like this.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 06:31:03 PM EST

What What??? (none / 0)

You changed it from him firing '13 rounds' to 'firing 76 shells'???!!!

He did NOT fire 76 times!!

He shot/fired THREE (3) times.
There were 76 shells found on/around him when he was arrested...only THREE (3) of which were empty (ie: having been shot/fired).

Meaning, had he not been grabbed/tackled/retained by a few of the church-goers....he COULD HAVE fired UP TO 76 times with the shotgun.

Thankfully, he did not get that opportunity.


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:05:32 PM EST

Re: What What??? (none / 0)

Oops. I'm sure linfar will correct it. She probably read that quote I posted the wrong way. It certainly wasn't done to mislead anyone.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What What??? (none / 0)

But kysen, he killed two people and at least two others are critial. All in all he shot seven people.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What What??? (none / 0)

Yah, it was a shotgun...meaning it scatters little pellets with each shot instead of one single bullet (though, technically, one bullet can itself kill/harm more than one person).

So, even though he only got off 3 shots...those 3 shots did great damage.


by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

Jeeze, even I got the number of people wrong in last comment. Ok. Diary now says he shot eight people with three shells. howzat??


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:34:21 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

Ya got the numbers right.
But, they still suck.  :(
by Kysen on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:37:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

I sadlyt agree. I hope the other two who are crtical do not die as well.


by linfar on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 07:54:37 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (2.00 / 1)

This was my church when I lived in Knoxville.  My parents were present at the shooting but fortunately were unharmed.

It seems a lot of stuff was going on with this guy... alcoholism, right wing fanticism, suicidal intent, and yes, homophobia.  In any event, it's a great tragedy.


by costanoan on Mon Jul 28, 2008 at 10:13:13 PM EST

Re: Knoxville Church Shooter Targeting Gays (none / 0)

linfar, i agree with you that homophobia is frequently an unmentioned trigger in tragic events that should be publicized as hate crimes.  that could very well be the case here, and i would guess that there's a good chance that this church was chosen because of that sign they put up.  however, it doesn't do anyone any good to talk about "gays getting shot" when the specifics of the case are not clear yet.  What is clear is that this church was publicly accepting of the LGBT community and that the shooter was a homophobe.  That should be the focus (along with whatever other twisted and hateful motives come forth), not whether or not the victims were actually gay.  This sort of thing needs to start being treated as the domestic terrorism that it is...


by bluedavid on Tue Jul 29, 2008 at 01:50:01 AM EST

Please see my new diary on this (none / 0)

I went to the candlelight vigil last night and wrote about it here.


by elrod on Tue Jul 29, 2008