Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based Initiative

Granted, I'm not your typical atheist.  I received an M.A. from a Divinity School and spent three years working on a Ph.D. in New Testament studies.  So perhaps all of this exposure to Christianity has corrupted the purity of my secular allegiances.  Perhaps the unreason of religious faith has crept into my mind and skewed my understanding of the secular state supported by Jefferson's famous "Wall of Separation" interpretation of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause.  Or maybe I'm some fanatic devotee of the Almighty Obama, who will happily cast aside any and all principle to spread the Gospel of my political Messiah.

Or perhaps I have taken the reason-based principles of secular worldviews to their logical end by resisting the kneejerk response of rejecting everything that has a basis in, or an association with, religion.  Perhaps I have reached the rational conclusion that religious institutions and communities have helped more people in need than any well written, thoughtful, and compelling treatise that persuasively argues against the existence of God.  

And maybe I have come to believe that even though two things must remain constitutionally and legally separate, that does not mean they cannot work in tandem towards a common goal.

Let me begin by encouraging all liberals to rediscover their religious roots.  Especially all you Bleeding Heart Liberals.  For those of you who are unfamiliar with the origin of this term, "bleeding heart liberal" was first printed by a journalist in the 1930s, and was (and still is) typically used to describe anyone who is overly sympathetic to the plight of impoverished and downtrodden people.  The "bleeding heart" part of the epithet alludes to a symbol used in Christian imagery and iconography, where a heart wrapped in a crown of thorns is depicted bleeding in the chest of Mary or Jesus.  Thus, a bleeding heart liberal is someone whose concern for the poor rivals that of Jesus and Mary.




So next time you hear a fundamentalist (or any politically conservative Christian) use the term "bleeding heart" in a derogatory fashion, first enjoy the ridiculous irony of the moment.  Then ask this unfortunately confused person why he or she has such a problem with Jesus.

This brings me to that bleeding heart liberal running for president.  And make no mistake, despite whatever posturing Senator Obama has made towards the political center in recent weeks, the man's heart bleeds as much as that of anyone here who would sooner blog the entire day about FISA than actually get out there and help someone in need.

It is unnecessary to rehash in detail Senator Obama's experience as a community organizer.  But perhaps it bears emphasizing that all of this community work that he did for years, assisting those less fortunate than most of us, was through the Developing Communities Project - a church-based endeavor.  This brings me to my confidence in Senator Obama's faith based initiatives.

Unlike Bush, who simply saw an opportunity to inject religion into public life with his faith based initiatives, thereby solidifying and energizing the evangelical wing of the party, Senator Obama understands first hand what church-based community activism can accomplish and, more importantly, HOW it gets accomplished.  Simply put, he is proposing a solution for a problem, which all liberals and progressives want to see resolved, in a manner that he knows from experience is effective.  It just so happens that this method involves the participation of churches.

OK, so what's the problem here?  Well, there are several potential problems with any initiative that involves funneling tax dollars to religious institutions.

First, let's deal with the general church-state issue.  I do believe that the founding fathers intended for our country to be governed by a secular state.  The lack of any mention whatsoever of religion or God in the constitution, except to state that Congress should not be in the business of establishing religion, is revealing this regard.  The mention of a Creator in reference to all men being created equal in the Declaration of Independence was more of a political jab at the divine right of kings espoused by the British Monarchy than a theologically significant statement of faith.

Having said that, I don't believe that "secular" means that the government cannot have any association with religion whatsoever.  Secular simply means non-religious.  It does not mean anti-religious, nor does it entail the rejection of religion.  This means that the government cannot and should not promote any particular religious faith or creed, or promote any religious institution in a religious capacity.  It does not mean that the government is forbidden from working with religious institutions in order to achieve secular goals (e.g., feeding hungry people).  

Second, there is the issue of hiring and firing.  Can religious organizations that receive public money discriminate on the basis of faith when making these decisions?  This has been my biggest objection to Bush's faith based initiative, and there is some ambiguity over Obama's stance on this as reported by the press:

The Associated Press initially reported Obama supports "their (faith-based organizations') ability to hire and fire based on faith." NBC reports the campaign says Obama's plan would prevent organizations from discriminating based on faith. The Associated Press changed its wording to say, "some ability to hire and fire based on faith." The campaign says this second version is still inaccurate.

As it stands from this bizarrely confusing account, it appears that Obama's stance will be that discrimination on the basis of religious belief for hiring and firing will not be permitted.  If this is the case, then my concerns are put to rest on this score.

Third, how will we ensure that these monies are not used to subsidize proselytizing and evangelical missions?  For example, suppose a church usually generates $10,000 in revenue on its own for community based projects.  It then usually divides the money in half, $5,000 to help poor people through a food pantry/soup kitchen and $5,000 for proselytizing missions.  What is to prevent the church from receiving $5,000 in tax payer funds and using that money for poverty programs, while reserving the full $10,000 of its own money for proselytizing?  This would effectively result in the government funding religious proselytizing.  I have not heard this problem addressed yet, and it remains my only real concern over this proposal.

But even if this last concern is not addressed to my satisfaction, and some churches increase their missionary activity because of government money, I will still offer my full throated support for these faith based initiatives, provided that on balance it offers substantial assistance to those who need it.  Some of us have the luxury of getting all worked up about the nuances and constitutional grey areas pertaining to the establishment clause of the First Amendment.  Others couldn't care less whether it was Jesus, Krishna, Uncle Sam, or all three working together who provided that hot bowl of soup.  I have a very difficult time sympathizing with the former group when the latter are so numerous...bleeding heart liberal that I am.

Update [2008-7-2 12:29:49 by Saintcog]: Rec List! Thanks! There is another great diary posted by Falsehood that thoughtfully considers how all of this stacks up against the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Definitely worth a read!

Display:


Yeah (2.00 / 2)

That's a good point on the de facto funding. A lot depends on how the Obama grant process would work.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:34:26 AM EST

The one thing (2.00 / 3)

that you keep leaving out is this.

Even IF Obama's plan can be run perfectly, what will the next prez do or the next? How about another gdub? You have opened the door, good luck shutting it again!

I do not have time to stay and play. I have a meeting to get to, a long commute and more work.

maybe later.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:40:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The door has been open for years (2.00 / 4)

You can't, unfortunately, throw out everything W has done to the government. The resistance would be too great and you'd have no time to spend moving forward. Instead, you can do your best to define the shape of those policies into something more in line with the Constitution and American ideals.

Now that "Faith-based initiatives" have been put out there and not roundly rejected, they are here to stay. Better to define the relationship between church and state then to pretend it does not exist. "Separation" is a handy slogan but is not part of the constitution. Non-intervention, deregulation, and rejection of influence are the Constitutional precepts, and while I've got my eye on this and will be ready with any warranted criticism, at this point I see nothing which violates those tenets.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The door has been open for years (2.00 / 3)

Oh yes you can throw out everything W has done.

When W took office, he had no problem dismantling programs that had already been established in the Clinton adminsitration, and he overrode a bunch of federal legislation and wrote executive orders to stop regulations from taking effect. Any Democrat worth our votes should plan on undoing just about everything W has done over the last 7 years. Otherwise, what is all this talk of "change" about?


by LakersFan on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The door has been open for years (none / 0)

That's a polarized position. One would hope the Obama administration would try to judge the past White House's aspects on their merits, and not their owner.

Aid to Africa comes to mind.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean (none / 0)

bush's false aid to Africa? His "show"?


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mean (none / 0)

I don't really know what I'm talking about here - my point is that hitting "undo" on the past 7 years is a brash idea, and I think Obama will be a little more thoughtful during the Restoration.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about (none / 0)

throwing out everything that is NOT CONSTITUTIONAL?


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How about (none / 0)

You've yet to explain how this violates the Establishment Clause, applied by Court Rulings.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:31:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The door has been open for years (2.00 / 2)

You can certainly throw out the faith based initiative program. There's no law to say you can't.

Religion and government should come nowhere near each other.

I'm appalled that Obama is even considering it. (Appalled but not surprised.)

If religious types want to do their thing, then let them on their own dime. Not mine. I don't pay taxes to support religion.

I don't care how well one thinks a program is defined and organized, there are always ways around it -- and religions have been some of the sneakiest, slimiest organizations when it comes to finding ways around government regulations.

We need freedom from organized religion -- if you want to be spiritual on your own, if you want to adhere to a religion on your own -- fine. But don't make the rest of us pay your bills.

I'm not an athiest. I have a strong personal fait. I am the product of sixteen years of Catholic education (with a forced additional major in Theology). So I am not coming at this as one who is against any form of religious faith or adherence. But I do see the dangers in any religioin sticking it's nose into the public tent. And I say keep them out.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm gonna need some evidence (none / 0)

To start -- let's see some evidence on "religions have been some of the sneakiest, slimiest organizations when it comes to finding ways around government regulations."

I ask because I really think that distinction belongs to corporations, hands down.  If anything, I'd think a majority of church's actually feel duty bound on some level to behave ethically and honestly, two attributes I don't normally associate with corporate America.

I'd also be curious on exactly what ways you envision to circumvent churches when it comes to aid for the poor and homeless, and those in crisis.  Should the desperate needs of these individuals be put further on hold while some new organization or bureaucracy is built from the ground up?  

The plan is to use existing church programs to funnel money to those who desperately need it while making every effort possible to not see that money diverted as you describe.  I'm more concerned for the people than serve than ideological purity.  

and unfortunately, if we keep the religious out of our "public tent" the Republicans will use them to move the tent.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:23:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm gonna need some evidence (none / 0)

We already have government agencies to handle the things you cite. The desperately in need have the government to turn to and the taxes we already pay for just those things.

If religions want to jump in and help, gerat. With their own money and that of their adherents.

As for citation of churches and their wiley ways -- I'll dig some up.

What makes you think that (a) churches really stick to their public moral stances; and (b) most churces have large corporate structures and act like the corporations you talk about.

No one was letting corporations off the hook -- just adding Churches in there because they are just as bad and pay no taxes too boot (and that tax exemption they are freely given is one of the ways they circumvent the other laws).

I don't want religions to be used by anyone and I don't want religions to use us either.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm gonna need some evidence (2.00 / 2)

I think when you and I imagine a "church" we see two distinctly different things.  Perhaps you see a mega-church or some "ministry" led by the likes of Jerry Falwell.
I see any one of a few dozen small and somewhat larger city churches of various demoninations that preach tolerance and social justice, that actively minister to the poor and troubled, that struggle themselves to stay afloat financially on the donations of poor members who give what they can.  The leaders of these churches that i'm familiar with are not living large and run their churches ethically and honestly.  Their faith in what they preach certainly seems sincere.

Two visions -- two realities.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 06:14:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm gonna need some evidence (none / 0)

I know there are such churches because I belong to one here in Philly. It does all the good things you mention.

BUT, I still do not want to see secular tax dollars going to that or any church, mega churches, store front churches, the small and struggling UCC church that I belong to, the Catholic Church that I used to belong to, or any other one.

This is a secular society and I want it to remain that way in every way.

One reality -- a secular society with tolerance for everyone, equality under the law for everyone, and room for religions to do what they do without public money supporting them.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 08:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The door has been open for years (2.00 / 1)

The thing is that this isn't for any religious activity. It's for summer learning programs, and community involvement - the exact stuff Obama started out doing.

This doesn't "pay the bills" for any religion. It makes social programs possible.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The door has been open for years (none / 0)

Well, even if what you say is true, that's the camel's nse in the tent.

And what makes you think that those saummer programs are religion free zones?

Attendees will be harangued and pushed to be religious.

And it does foot their bills -- how do you insure that the money will all go where you think it should be going?

Even if it does go to those camps, that means it frees up other church monies to go to other programs of which me might not approve or even suffer under such as stopping stem cell research, discriminating agianst gays and lesbians, or other things.

My secular money needs to go to secular things. If I want to support a religion, I send thatmoney separately.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The one thing (2.00 / 5)

The door has already been opened by Bush.  Actually, if we want to work with that metaphor, the door was blown apart by Bush and now we are left with an open door frame.  Obama is working to replace the door even if he plans to leave it open somewhat, and perhaps add a screen door so the bugs don't get in :)

As for future administrations, again the precedent has already been set. Even if Obama were to shut down the faith based initiative program entirely, there would always be the Bush precedent that later Republican adminstrations would appeal to


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:54:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Lol, our responses are the same. (2.00 / 2)

Good show. Glad more people than just I see this.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:56:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Righto (2.00 / 1)

Glad to see your articulately detailed response complimenting my metaphor.  That's exactly what I was trying to convey.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Righto (none / 0)

:D

I think it's more that Bush's hinges were such that the door swung inward, giving faith leaders a strong presidential ear. We need to put the hinges in right - all groups need to knock first.

Of course, we haven't settled what the door is TO yet..


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:14:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Shut it down (none / 0)

along with everything else that is NOT Constitutional!  


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We need to lock the door... (none / 0)

...and nail it shut!!!


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The one thing (none / 0)

Well, you know, Abraham Lincoln was perhaps the clearest and strongest example of a unitary executive that we had until Bush (and perhaps even after Bush - he did singlehandedly suspend habeas corpus during the Civil War, arguably with no constitutional authority to do so).  I guess you could say that Lincoln "opened the door" for Bush on that front, but I doubt that anyone would take issue with the "precedent" established by Lincoln's administration.

Sometimes you just have to take your presidents one at a time and trust that, if one part of the government gets out of hand, other parts of the system (courts, voters, etc.) will bring it back in line.  


by rfahey22 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Difference is... (none / 0)

We were in a Civil War. I do believe Lincoln should have went to Congress for this.

but...

(Art. I, Sec. 9), the Constitution states: "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in causes of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

What gdub has been doing does not fall under this.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The one thing (none / 0)

Trusting that other branches will do their job is not enough (in case the past seven years haven't shown you that already).

Action is necessary on the part of "the people" who pay the government to do its job.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The door was opened in the 60s (none / 0)

if not earlier.  


by JJE on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So... (none / 0)

if the "door" opening is unconstitutional then close it!


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it isn't unconstitutional (2.00 / 1)

the court has held repeatedly that government funds can go to religious organizations with certain limitations that this plan appears to meet.


by JJE on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Recced and waiting for a tip jar (2.00 / 3)

It's easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to all things religious, but what is a church if not a grassroots organization? So long as the proper controls are put in to limit the spending to non-religious purposes, I see no reason to ignore this valuable infrastructure.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:55:15 AM EST

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (2.00 / 3)

For some reason I usually don't post a tip jar when posting on MyDD.  I have no idea why.  Weird, huh?

Great comment about the church being a grassroots organization.  I actually deleted three paragraphs from this diary where I started to talk about the origin of Christianity as the model for how a successful grassroots movement operates.  But then I realized that it was completely outside the scope of this diary and would be better reserved for another diary sometime in the future.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:59:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (2.00 / 3)

The origins of Christianity ARE a fascinating tale of grass roots activism.  However, like anything grass roots organization, when it became mainstream, it was hijacked and edited by a powerful elite leadership.  The comment below shows alot of frustration with the abortion issue obsession of the religious right.  I find it an amazingly gratifying blessing (and I say that as a secular citizen) that the new religious movement growing in the wings is more concerned with poverty, the environment and AIDS suffering.
If the infrastructure is in place to help people, the government would be foolish not to utilize it... as long as there is oversight to enforce separation.
Montesquieu and Locke are rolling in their graves right now...
by mannabass on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (2.00 / 1)

"If the infrastructure is in place to help people, the government would be foolish not to utilize it... as long as there is oversight to enforce separation."

Absolutely perfect way to put it.  These institutions are in unique positions to help the community, and can do so a hell of a lot cheaper than if we were to set up governmental bodies in each community to do the same thing.  They've already got the volunteers and most likely the real estate to help people.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:46:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (none / 0)

Just because something is a grassroots organization does not make it in and of itself a good thing.

There are lots of grassroots organizations which I'm sure you wouldn't want to see funded.

ANd another point to remember, is that if the various religions are to remain free and independent, then government shouldn't get into their affairs. They should be equally worried about their own autonomy.

No one here has a knee-jerk reaction to religion -- people here who are objecting are doing so with a lot of experience and knowledge behind them.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (2.00 / 1)

"ANd another point to remember, is that if the various religions are to remain free and independent, then government shouldn't get into their affairs."

I'm sorry, but that does suggest a knewwjerk reaction. Government will not be getting into the affairs of any religion. Government will be funding community programs that have nothing to do with proselytizing.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (none / 0)

(a) if you think that anything a church does is proselytization free, you are mistaken. (I've worked with several different churches and nothing they do is message-free.)

(b) if a Government gives to a church and that money has strings (and all money has strings just ask lobbyists), then the government is getting into Church affairs or it will soon.

Please don't characterize my remarks as kneejerk -- that's pejorative and condescending and I don't appreciate it at all.

My reactions are well thought out and considered. Throwing those kinds of terms around says more about you than about me.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (2.00 / 1)

"if you think that anything a church does is proselytization free, you are mistaken."

That's just flat out false.  Your experience says one thing, mine says quite another.  The main point here, however, is that if these churches and organizations are found discriminating based on their beliefs or proselytizing they will no longer receive funding.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (none / 0)

I disagree with your statement that religion is a grass roots organization. For the most part the larger religions are vast hierarchical organizations.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recced and waiting for a tip jar (none / 0)

The Catholic Church would certainly qualify. Southern Baptists, on the other hand, have complete local control. The only thing the national conventions can do are passing non-binding resolutions and kicking churches out.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right now, I am STILL too pissed to like this.... (2.00 / 1)

I remember when I first got into politics, the Catholic church was mostly infamous for helping the poor Latin American countries fight right wing oppressive regimes...

At least, that is what the conservatives belly-ached about?

Now, it seems mostly a group of old white men, bitching about Abortion, but sitting on their hands about the Death Penality (at least they used to be consistent and were vocal on both) and working to cover up decades of pedophilic known abuse by priests.

BTW,  I was raised a Catholic, am a product of the Catholic school systems, so anyone that says I am anti-catholic is off base.

I agree, we MAY be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but for the last 2-3 decades Religion has MOSTLY been on ONE side on the US polical wars.

Conservative Bullshit about Gay Marriage and Abstenance only, and fricking Anti-Science crap like Intelligent Design.

Mostly, I am SICK of these M*****ers, and I want them OUT of my Whitehouse.

So, excuse my while I fume.

I saw all the other moves as neccesary, and I UNDERSTAND that Obama sees an opening in dienfranchised evangelicals.

But, for me, after all the abuse that has been well documented about Bushs Faith Based BS, I am a little to raw to not react as I have.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:05:16 PM EST

Re: Right now, I am STILL too pissed.... (2.00 / 1)

I really don't see this as a political opportunity that Obama is trying to exploit.  Yes, there will definitly be political benefits from this move.  But we need to understand that Obama worked with church organizations and understands first hand how effective they can be in building and improving communities.  Whatever else this is, it is something that he genuinely believes will benefit the poor in this country.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right now, I am STILL too pissed to like this. (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps religion and religious people haven't moved to the right, as you assume.  Perhaps those who don't agree with the right wing agenda have been shut down, locked out and dismissed as not "real" Christians.  

I know a number of Christians from a range of practices that have grown tired and frustrated with the co-opting of Christianity by the Right.  They may not favor abortion but are not necessarily anti-choice;  they are capable of accepting a broader definition of "family"; they are repulsed by hate-mongering and narrow-mindedness.

One aching problem in this country for the past eight years has been this false equating of Christianity with conservativism.  Some of the strongest fuel for the civil rights, anti-death penalty and peace movements of the past came from deeply religious persons acting on their RELIGIOUS beliefs.

Bush would have us all believe these Christians no longer exist or matter.  They haven't moved -- they've only been shut out.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right now, I am STILL too pissed to like this. (2.00 / 1)

See Jim Wallis for more on this stuff.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right now, I am STILL too pissed to like this. (none / 0)

You left out that without the Catholic Church and their missions to the new world those right wing governments would never have existed in the first place.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right now, I am STILL too pissed to like this. (none / 0)

This is not a debate on religion's effect on humanity. If it was, we're never get anything done.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (2.00 / 5)

Okay here it is it is real simple. You CANNOT take my money by force and give it to religious organizations that I would not choose to support. It violates the Constitution, it violates my rights! I know that may not mean much to the new Democratic Party, but to the old Party the Constitution and individual rights were pretty high up on the list of what's important!


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:23:52 PM EST

Ignorant (none / 0)

government grants have supported church social services since LBJ.  This is not new.


by JJE on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ignorant (none / 0)

Name one. People keep making this statement, but I have yet to hear one factual account of this.


by LakersFan on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Catholic Charities (2.00 / 1)

Here is a wingnut complaining about it.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_1_ho w_catholic_charities.html


by JJE on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Catholic Charities (2.00 / 1)

Thanks for actually answering my question.

Is Catholic Charities part of the Catholic church anymore? I was under the impression that they are now just a non-profit organization that happens to have "Catholic" in the name. As far as I know, they have their own facilities, etc. But I'm really only familiar with their Thrift shops, so I really don't know.


by LakersFan on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're welcome (2.00 / 1)

They appear to be part of the Church.

http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/NetC ommunity/Page.aspx?pid=296&srcid=538

See esp. reasons 2 and 4.


by JJE on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're welcome (2.00 / 1)

I'm not convinced they're truly part of the church, but then again, I haven't seen their 501c3 paperwork. This is the part that makes me have doubts:

However organized in terms of canon and civil law, Catholic Charities have responsibilities to operate consistently with the teachings and values of the Church. While there is great organizational variety, the diocesan bishop ordinarily is positioned within the civil law structure--even of a separately incorporated Charities--to allow him to exercise his canonical responsibilities for the apostolate.

There are a few mentions of Catholic Charities having separate organizational structure. I think this is sort of like the many "Friends Of" charities that are set up to support public schools, parks, etc. that wouldn't otherwise be eligible for non-profit funds and donations.

Catholic Charities is still a good example of a religious-based organization receiving federal funding. So the question is: If they've done this through existing federal programs, why do we need a special office of faith-based initiatives?


by LakersFan on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (2.00 / 2)

This sounds very similar to groups who oppose federal money funding abortions or stem cell research.  If only we got to pick and choose which programs our individual tax dollars are support...

But then everyone would opt not to support anything, and we would have an unfunded government.  Society would collapse shortly thereafter.  

Other than that, great point.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (2.00 / 1)

The only groups who oppose abortion and stem cell research are RELIGIOUS GROUPS or groups based in religion/funded by religions! And you want us to give them more money so they can divert it to more opposition to abortion and stem cell research and everything else progressives hold dear.

We do not want to unfund the government; we DO NOT want to fund religion. The government should not be in the business of funding religion in any way, shape, or form.

We don't get to pick and choose from among the SECULAR programs, but we sure as hell have  a right to say that our money won't go to religions.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (2.00 / 1)

This does NOT fund religion. It funds programs.

That's like saying a grant to buy school laptops pays the principal's salary.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:00:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (none / 0)

It funds programs with a religious message. No religion or church creates message free programs.

When they use this money they will be allowed to discriminate in who they hire for summer camps -- or do you imagine that they will all gladly hire homosexuals as counsellors, or other people for whom they have some religious objection. That in itself is part of their message and using that money spreads that message.

Funding programs frees up other money that the Church can then use to stop abortions, stop stem cell research, or do other things that spreads their messages.

And yes, funding laptops in a school does free up money so that salaries can be paid or other things can be done. That's why schools seek funding for programs etc., so they can use their base funds for other things.

Do you really think that everything is so pure and simple? Do you miss the connections between things and money and people and programs?

Why is it so difficult to admit this is a bad idea? I knew it was bad when Bush enacted it and I know it's still bad now that Obama has bought into it and wants to expand it.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (2.00 / 1)

"Why is it so difficult to admit this is a bad idea?"

Because aside from your continued misrepresentations about how this would be implemented, it isn't a bad idea.  As for your concerns about discrimination of employees and preaching to those who receive help, please read what Obama had to say about the implementation of his program:

"Now, make no mistake, as someone who used to teach constitutional law, I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don't believe this partnership will endanger that idea - so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them - or against the people you hire - on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples, and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we'll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work."


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (none / 0)

Well, he leaves a lot open there:

"can't discriminate on the basis of religion." But how about other factors, like sexual orientation? He didn't mention that.

Neither he nor you deal with the fact that funding these programs frees up other church money to do other work which goes against the progressive grain.

And programs that work? Who will be reporting back on that? Will we need to fund another beaucracy to keep tabs on the various programs? Or, will we rely on their oh so honest representations of their own work?

Who says this mixing of church and state won't endanger the separation clause? Many disagree and did disagree when Bush instituted the program.

I do not misrepresent the situation. I look at it realistically and not with regard to winning the votes of some group -- you, however, choose to look at it with blinders, rose colored glasses, and through a twisted kaleidoscope.


by cuppajoe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 08:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why This Atheist Supports Obama's Faith Based (2.00 / 1)

Er - Gov't can do lots of things you don't like.

Care to explain how it violates your rights?


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Although I consider myself a secular (none / 0)

humanist and deplore any church state entanglement, in this case I feel the old adage,"we can't let perfect be the enemy of good," applies. I any event, when I threw my lot in with Senator Obama it was with the ultimate goal of getting this man elected. If pandering and moving to the center is part of that process then so be it. I have to believe that Obama, the man that millions of people opened up their wallets for, the man that helped us all to believe that, "yes we can," will emerge at the end of this process as progressive as when he went in. To borrow a phrase and twist it a bit, "he must be as careful getting out of the center as he was careless getting in."


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:23:53 PM EST

Re: Although I consider myself a secular (none / 0)

The problem is when does the pandering stop. For all the criticisms of the Clintons on this issue, I'm surprised to see people on our side being too flexible too soon.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:30:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Although I consider myself a secular (none / 0)

And yet, this has been a fairly consistent idea for him - it's not new. He chose to wait to roll it out for obvious reasons, but its not inconsistent with past statements.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:06:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Gets It (2.00 / 3)

Why is pragmatism pandering?

Give me a break.  As the diarist pointed out, funding to religious groups has been around for years (YMCA anyone?  What you thought that big "C" stood for something else).

George Bush, as he did with many things, exploited the practice for political gain.  The way I see it, Obama is going to attempt to fix it.  To me, that makes sense.

Additionally, I've seen a lot of comments in this diary and another from those who aren't particularly religious.  Guess what?  I'm not either, but just as I don't want someone else's religious views forced on me, I wouldn't want someone's non-religious ones either.  If they are using government funds for secular initiatives, they're entitled to them.

Giving federal funds to churches to help the poor, elderly, etc. isn't giving them a voice in running the government.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:32:54 PM EST

Thank you (2.00 / 5)

for writing the diary I can only wish I wrote.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:36:43 PM EST

No, Thank YOU (2.00 / 1)

If your name is a reflection of the work you have been doing this election cycle, then ten of these diaries will not equal a day's work from you.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Recced (2.00 / 1)

And let us not forget that these faith based initiatives can have a major impact in many inner city neighborhoods where gang violence, drug addiction, homelessness and prostitution may be rampant. These programs may serve as a source of hope and sanctuary for many downtrodden individuals who feel they have been neglected by society.

But you know, its important to remember that thinking individuals are never going to agree one hundred per cent with their candidate's stance on every issue. Even though this decision may not be popular with many of his supporters, I'm with him on this one.


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:56:47 PM EST

Re: Recced (none / 0)

this is not the place but why aren't you calling me


John McCain: Everyones nowhere man
by johnny sexton on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 2)

Not one cent of tax dollars should ever, ever go to any religious institution. The constitution could not be clearer.

The idea that somehow the government is going to somehow police/enforce the set of rules that Obama proposes is just ludicrous! They can't even monitor taxing the wealthy and no-bid military contractors.

This is pandering of the worst sort.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:00:47 PM EST

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

I think I missed that part of the Constitution which "could not be clearer" about tax dollars going to any religious institutions.  The Establishment Clause certainly does not offer the kind of clarity that you are alleging.  Perhaps you could point us towards the passage you have in mind.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

Are you saying that it is okay that the government collect taxes and hands those revenues at will over to religious institutions?


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

There are many Universities and other organizations that have been doing quality secular work long before Obama has been around that prove you are wrong.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:32:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

I believe he's saying that it's ok for the government to support social programs run by churches.

Your spin is a bit different.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

If religious institutions wish to contribute to the community they can do it with their own funds. They are already exempt from taxes, they should be taxing themselves to help the community. If the government is paying the bill there should be no intermediary selling religion. Let the largesse of the church be its own.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well. (none / 0)

Everyone should get to pick and chose what their tax dollars go to individually, so our government can collapse.  If it doesn't violate the Constitution, it is just your personal view, and there is a strong reason why that is irrelevant.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well. (none / 0)

So are you proposing that government fund should be funneled to religious institutions for their "secular" community work?


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well. (none / 0)

Demwords, you seem very biased and suspicious of religion. Have you ever been to a church that runs this type of program?

Are you basing your thoughts on the political religious right?


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

The final 1786 Act for Establishing Religious Freedom read in part that:

...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions of belief...


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

This doesn't support religious worship.

It does support "ministry" in the missions sense, but I don't think that's what the act was describing.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

The money is passed from government hands to a religious institution. Who is going to police these institutions to keep them from "selling" religion as the price of aid. Let these untaxed institutions tax themselves to help the community. BTW the "mission" of the missionary work is to seek converts. There are missions all over California and Africa and they were used to forcibly sell religion. The government should play no role.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

Please go on record saying you believe no federal money should go to any religious organization.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

Consider it on record!!!!
I don't even think the Armed forces should be paying chaplains.
John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

So then, what about all the non-profits run by churches?

They're technically secular, but like many non-profits, churches started them. Are they tainted too to you?


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

First off, somehow you have mixed up the Constitution and the Virginia Bill of Religious Freedom, something clearly many people do right?  

Second, you are not supporting the religious part of an organization, but the secular part that provides secular goods for a community.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

This is the core belief behind the establishment clause. If religious institutions wish to express largesse tot he community, let the members tax themselves to provide the aid.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:42:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

No, this is not the core belief of the establishment clause.  Its easy to throw that around without any actual data backing it up.  The government is not dealing with the religious wing of an organization, just like when it deals with a religious organization like Notre Dame .  It has nothing to do with the religious wing, because research is not religious, just like feeding the homeless is not religious.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

If the religious institution has a mission to feed the homeless let them pay for it themselves from their tax free contributions and perhaps instead of building extravagant edifices to their faith.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

You can smear religious institutions all you want, it will still not make you have a valid point.  Which it is clearly evident that you do not.  


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

Sorry...but all you are doing is making excuses for Obama.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

Still no data, ad hominem attacks, what a failure of an argument.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:04:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

Do you honestly think that government money should be flowing to religious institutions? A simple yes or no. My answer is a categorical "no."


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:09:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

I believe that it should not go to anyone for religious reasons, and I am happy it does not.  It goes to them for secular reasons, because they have infrastructure there and are willing to do the charity work.  You have no argument.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

There is no way to practically monitor your fictional wall between secular and religious activity, and with a right wing zealot in the white house at some distant date some megachurch will become the Halliburton of social services. You're the one with no argument because you are trapped in an abstraction rather than practical reality.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 2)

With a bad President, EVERYTHING gets screwed up. The EPA finds ways not to enforce the laws. The Consumer Products and Safety Commission passes unsafe products. Do you want those gone, because of the potential for problems?

Some religious people are bad. All are not, but you seem to disagree.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 1)

That's painting with a very broad brush.

All religion isn't evil or full of itself, you know.


by Falsehood on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

Religion is a private matter in which the government should have no role.

In terms of evil of religion...it's subjective

...some Christians think Islam is evil...
...some Moslems think Christianity is evil...
...any religion will have some taxpayer who thinks that it is evil or good.

I don't agree with Hitchens on much, but I find it hard to find one case where religion has been a force for good.

In fact, I'd love to see someone find a case of religion actually doing something good other than providing false comfort.

My feeling is that government and religions should have nothing to do with one another.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 2)

"but I find it hard to find one case where religion has been a force for good."

Ok, first, without the catholic church billions of people would have died from malnutrition and disease for one.  Civil rights movement, duh.  Ymca.  Soup Kitchens.  Womens shelters.  Just to name a few.  That is the most absurd statement I have ever seen.  Your hate of religion as a whole is your problem, not ours.  You still lack case law, you still lack an actual argument besides intolerance and hate.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

The Catholic church has been an official instrument of oppression since it was Roman Catholicism was "invented" by Constantine the "Great." "By this Conquer" was a great start. No wonder you want religion and government to march hand in hand. I don't consider a distaste for religions that oppress and lie to people to be a negative. And if you think the civil rights movement was driven by religion you are sadly mistaken, In fact Christianity was the great engine driving the rationalization for slavery.

Religion is codified superstition that is usually misused by the powerful against the weak.

Want case law? Start with the Spanish Inquisition.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 2)

OK, this is becoming absurd now.  Yes, awful things have been committed in the name of religion.  But you must also acknowledge that some very courageous and virtuous acts have been undertaken in the same name.

You mention slavery?  Have you conveniently forgotten that the underground railroad was largely organized and assisted by such churches as the Presbyterians and Methodists.  

And yes, the civil rights movement was driven by people of religious faith.  To deny this demonstrates egregious ignorance.  Martin Luhter King was the Pastor of a Baptist Church.  Jerry Falwell, in fact, began his ministry arguing that churches should have no involvement in politics precisely because he was opposed to the civil rights movement and the religious institutional forces that drove it.

Your vitriol for religion appears to be blinding you to some very simple historical facts.  It's this kind of kneejerk reactionism that have given atheists a reputation for being angry and misanthropic.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (none / 0)

More people have been put to the sword because of the delusion of religion than were ever positively served by these institutions. I am angry that otherwise intelligent allow themselves to be fooled and then rationalize horrible things in the name of what are essentially fairy tales.


John McCain: Country Club First!
by demwords on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Pandering of the worst sort!!! (2.00 / 3)

Right, the "delusion" of religion.  This is why we can't have a civil discourse in this country - because people can't have a conversation without injecting inflamatory rhetoric.

In any case, there is no basis for this claim that "more people were put to the sword..."  I'm sure you'll discuss the The Spanish Inquisition and the Conquistadors, and then the Crusades, and the persecution of heretical sects by the Catholic Church, the Salem Witch Trials, and whatever else a person can dig up from visiting American Atheists' website.

But here's the problem.  You have 2,000 years of Christian History and a handful of high profile wars and crimes committed by Christian and/or the Church.  This you will lump into some general category of Christianity being the direct cause of death and destruction, etc.  Using this logic we could blame the genocide of Stalin on atheism (as many Christians have attempted to do).  This is guilt by association.  Crusades = Christianity; Stalin = atheism.

What is not documented in our history books are all the missions to third world countries, the anti-poverty efforts of churches throughout this country, the fact that a large number of hospitals and hospices in this country are church funded or sponsored.  The list is far more extensive than your pet list of Christian atrocities.

But then I suppose that all these acts of generosity are merely a screen to hide the wicked Christians' real motive to convert the world to Christianity.  Yes, I know all about bat-shit crazy types like Christopher Hitchens and his crusade against Mother Theresa.  People need a hobby man.

I'm sorry you have been so jaded by whatever experience left you with this view of Christianity.  Maybe you know some really horrible people who call themselves Christian.  This has not been my experience.  The deeply religious Christians I know are generous and sincere, and they are not Hell bent on converting everyone at the point of a sword.


by Saintcog on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:33:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

wow (2.00 / 1)

now you're like my hero or something.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]